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Monday, May 6, 2024 |
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SORG MANSION TAX CREDIT |
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enough is enough 
MUSA Resident 
Joined: Jan 30 2013 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 75 |
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 Topic: SORG MANSION TAX CREDITPosted: Jun 29 2014 at 10:23pm |
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HHG
Why don't you call Target headquarters and ask them why they closed their store in Middletown. My guess their reason will be the same reason Spider John closed his. His family has done nothing to you. They have donated to many causes in this town but sometimes you have to say enough is enough. They have donated more money than you will ever make. If you want to attack someone go downtown and rant and rave to city council and get Middletown turned around.
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Enough is Enough
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bumper
MUSA Citizen 
Joined: Feb 01 2010 Location: over here Status: Offline Points: 307 |
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Posted: Jun 29 2014 at 9:20pm |
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blah! blah! blah! you Historic douche bag, ya not pissing me off with your really stupid post!! i kinda don't see you as a douche bag, think you are more like dog poo on a shoe!!!
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Historic House Guy
MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 28 2013 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 272 |
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Posted: Jun 29 2014 at 6:15pm |
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You know, I get along great with everyone I meet. if a dozen people from this forum think I'm a douche bag that's perfectly fine with me since they are the same ones that love to look at everything from the worst possible point of view. In fact, it's not just perfectly fine, it tells me I'm doing something right.
Have a nice night gentlemen, I'll try and come back in a few weeks to piss you off again.
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Bocephus
MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jun 04 2009 Status: Offline Points: 838 |
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Posted: Jun 29 2014 at 6:05pm |
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HHG I will say it, you are a dousche bag. (hope I spelled that right)
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bumper
MUSA Citizen
Joined: Feb 01 2010 Location: over here Status: Offline Points: 307 |
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Posted: Jun 28 2014 at 9:21pm |
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He bought a cheap house on S Supthin (how smart was that?
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spiderjohn
Prominent MUSA Citizen 
Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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Posted: Jun 28 2014 at 9:05pm |
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hopeless and clueless---hmmm
you might confuse my business operation and financial management with my current opinions on the state of our community well--after a lifetime in a successful business, it was my duty to put it to bed--should have done it a couple of years earlier we had a great run, and nothing lasts forever--though we out-lasted pretty much everyone similar across a wide area. I can only thank the community for decades of support--and also gratitude to the wonderful staff over the time Still friends with most of them so we must have done a few things the right way when you get older, family time is a much higher priority we shall see what becomes of our prior locations, and whether the public finds them better or not as much to their liking as what we offered so--go for it house guy--build your empire--but remember--it will end some day also I hope that your run ends on a high note like ours ended You might find someone for whom to work that has a better picture on finances and what it takes/costs--and maybe someone more skilled to handle your communications just a thought--good luck!
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Historic House Guy
MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 28 2013 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 272 |
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Posted: Jun 28 2014 at 8:34pm |
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Yes SJ and when I met you, I couldn't believe how hopeless and clueless you were. It was everyone else s fault. The guy that got a million dollar business dropped in his lap and sold it all..I'm building one, something you have no appreciation for unless it was given to you. What are you building Steve? What risk are you taking?
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Paul Nagy
MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jan 11 2009 Status: Offline Points: 384 |
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Posted: Jun 28 2014 at 8:26pm |
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HHG,
Your wrong again. We are talking about the state of the city NOW. Its in total decline. That's teh only reason someone like you get work when others can't. Guy's like you keep lying about how wonderful things are but you are indeed lying. pn |
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spiderjohn
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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Posted: Jun 28 2014 at 8:20pm |
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thanx Paul, but let it go...
I met this fine gentleman a while back We talked once, and I thought that it went pretty well--I was honest with him He bought a cheap house on S Supthin(how smart was that?) the only thing historic about his house is that it should be on Doug's list---history He has been here a couple of years and thinks that he has it figured out he may figure it out eventually--good luck to him But all he can really do to get attention is to throw stones--nbd--dime a dozen He is probably shilling for work in these "historic treasures", milking taxpayer $$ but he is right about one thing--time for spider to shut up, bug out and leave this town to the brilliant minds that ran it, still run it-and will run it in the future. Don't let him fool you--house guy doesn't care about this town--he cares about house guy
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Historic House Guy
MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 28 2013 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 272 |
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Posted: Jun 28 2014 at 8:14pm |
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Paul, I'm on the square and the level. Who's putting there balls on the line and making something new? Who's selling of the old family's sh*t? Really? You guys just keep bitching about yesterday. Go ahead...
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Paul Nagy
MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jan 11 2009 Status: Offline Points: 384 |
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Posted: Jun 28 2014 at 8:04pm |
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HHG, YOU should zip it. You’ve done nothing but prove that you don’t know what you’re talking about and you don’t know the facts, aren’t very observant and rather than debate issues get personal about people you obviously are out to get. You think you are smart if you can get people to fall into the trap by baiting them to jump in to your cheap, petty personal attacks rather than debate real issues.. Well, the fact is we have all seen your kind many times before and we’ll play the game with you just to show you up and how petty you are. SJ doesn’t need defending. He is more than able to defend himself but you only show your ignorance of the facts and circumstances of a city in decline when you say stupid things like “You’ve done nothing but fail to change with times and sold off your parents hard work off for years. Again these remarks are just personal attacks with no basis of truth and are really none of your business what a person does with his business.. The fact is a good businessman like SJ did change with the times just like many other business people who have sold out and left and gave up businesses in Middletown because we have had council and city administrations who brought this city to decline and have no understanding about business and economic growth just as you obviously don’t understand business. Business 101 teaches you when your business isn’t surviving because of the economy and local circumstances you cut your losses and move on. But you and your downtown cronies will tax citizens to death to hold on to a losing situation as long as you’re not paying for it out of your pocket. Downtown has been a loser in the millions of dollars for many years now because of those like you who will defend a losing situation at the taxpayer’s expense rather than to admit to changing times. Furthermore, SJ and his family have a wonderful “took a chance and did well” story that you will never have. They started many years before you ever came on the scene and did so well that their history is an important part of Middletown’s history. They did well enough to help many people and causes for decades. You will never match their contributions to this city. I seldom call people’s comments stupid but your statement that says, “The fact that you sold the last store and that some top heavy fat corporation can buy your store, put 10's of thousands of dollars into it, and make money say's it all.” There are many businesses and individuals out here right now wishing they could be so lucky to have some top heavy fat corporation buy them out of this losing city. Don’t you really know why these many dollar store are coming into Middletown? If not, then you need more help than we thought. The fact is, “Growth and change isn't your strong point. I'll bet you even voted for that "change"....” I have little doubt now that your vote has helped to support the decline of this city and its losses to thousands of citizens. “You should probably zip it.” pn
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Historic House Guy
MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 28 2013 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 272 |
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Posted: Jun 28 2014 at 7:54pm |
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You continue to blame economics for Your failures while giving yourself a full pardon for your short comings. Let me ask you this, how many store did the family own when you "took over" and how many do they on now? I'm busy building something new. I have little time to care about some whine ass tat blew a family fortune.
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spiderjohn
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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Posted: Jun 28 2014 at 7:34pm |
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sure house guy--I only ran the company for 30 years, with the last ten going south.
I could have laid off, paid minimum and eliminated bennies and probably made it. Or been like the new outfit and dropped a half mill in to it.. When it is time to go it is time to go--why stay at the table until you go broke? you didn't get it before and you don't get it now ever wonder why there are no small stores left? How well has Middietown changed with the times? Do you really think that always going back to :historic" will bring it back? you continue to act like nothing happened in this town before you arrived. Plenty of good was here. |
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Historic House Guy
MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 28 2013 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 272 |
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Posted: Jun 28 2014 at 6:34pm |
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Steve, you should probably zip it. You've done nothing but fail to prove you can change with times and sold you parents hard work off for years. You have no, "I took a chance and did well", story.. The fact that you sold the last store and that some top heavy fat corporation can buy your store, put 10's of thousands of dollars into it, and make money say's it all.
Growth and change isn't your strong point. I'll bet you even voted for that "change".... |
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spiderjohn
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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Posted: Jun 27 2014 at 2:44pm |
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correct--no good excuse for my last post
I usually agree with Rhodes' postings, though we think differently on the value/future of the Sorg properties This place is still the best source of local information and discussion dis-agreement is usually healthy, with differing parties usually gaining new insight and perspective. Adversaries often become friends. Hopefully the case with everyone here When you demean my prior occupation, property and local knowledge to trumpet the value of other entities it does get my attention. My last and smallest business property was a local staple for 51 years. At no time was it dependent on tax $$ grants, and ir paid big-time in property tax, sales tax, payroll tax, CAT tax, inventory tax and taxes many of you have never heard of. Not to mention licenses and permits. It featured healthy foods and many local employees and used many local distribution providers(jobs for others). It was sold(for more $$ than the Sorg properties combined), is being completely re-furbished and will re-open in another 2 months + to serve the area again(with employees--jobs). It is not based on your tax $$, and will pay the same taxes mentioned above(remember factguy unfortunately stating that the new owners will pay through the nose on higher property tax rates?). How much in tax $$ will the Sorg properties need, and when will they become functional? What if any property taxes will they pay? How many people will they employ? Who will they serve doing what? |
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Rhodes
MUSA Resident
Joined: Jun 18 2010 Status: Offline Points: 209 |
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Posted: Jun 27 2014 at 11:11am |
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My posts are neither misguided or naive. <-- is that one of those personal insult things you don't want thrown your way? You can throw them my way, I could care less. Just quote me correctly next time. You weren't being objective in vision, you were trying to rattle the cage. You got called out on it because it was so over the top ridiculous.
I like my posts and I think most people do (from what I hear). It's hard to argue against reason although the merry band of brothers will surely do so as it seems protocol on this site. Back to the downtown lamps? Ok, I don't know what is so misguided about asking how they cost more, but don't mind being informed. As I have repeatedly said, I wasn't in that discussion before and didn't care. Someone brought it up in this thread like it was the end of the world. Turns out they're all over town.
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spiderjohn
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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Posted: Jun 27 2014 at 10:30am |
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What a disappointing piece of work you have become.
What I started posting in this thread was 100% objective in vision. You have evolved it into muck with your personal insults. To me, Mr.Nagy, chmoore1, fact guy And whomever I have missed or is next. You are correct in tvT most of your postings are simple and direct, though as all of us, sometimes misguided and naive. Your "streetlights" comments specifically Nbd--we will go on, hopefully in a progressive constructive manner. |
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Rhodes
MUSA Resident
Joined: Jun 18 2010 Status: Offline Points: 209 |
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Posted: Jun 27 2014 at 9:55am |
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SJ, I have never said you claimed to be a development whiz. One of your cheerleaders thinks you are hands off because you had an aisle 5 and an aisle 9. It's really scary that I have to keep explaining what I post when it is so simple the first time.
Actually the plot swohio75 suggested is a better area to do a redevelopment like Trinity Place or something similar. Remove that part of Tytus Ave., clear out the over growth of the canal, remove the buildings on that triangle or at least that welfare tower, connect the land to Smith Park. It sits across from the police station, post office, behind a courthouse, sits along the Reinartz escape route from downtown, much further from the grit of the Central Ave. hookers. It actually would be an excellent area for redevelopment. By removing that part of Tytus, it would force traffic onto Verity Parkway (where it should be) and maybe that section of Verity could go back to being restaurants like it partially was back in the 70's. It's already a wide boulevard. So I have to say swohio75 might have hit a home run with that suggestion. Carry on with your fantasy of demolishing the Sorg Mansion, which is never going to happen in any of our lifetimes.
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spiderjohn
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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Posted: Jun 27 2014 at 9:13am |
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boy o boy--I was happy to let this go until Rhodes insults my intent and purpose. I have never claimed to be a development whiz or mega-mogul in this community. Once again, those are Rhodes' words(which he will later deny or say that they were out of context). My company did a lot of business in this community, and at one time was one of the leading handful of private employers in this city. I was fortunate to work with many of the brightest in this community during their teen years. I don't control what others say or think about me or anything else(obviously!), and everyone posting on this forum does not think the same or is part of some clique(obviously!) as is often accused by the snipers and hitmen. I don't hide behind any screen names since I was outed many years ago.
Provocative? I was dead serious in my thinking. I was not talking about another cheap, half-assed chain strip center--I mean something that would be enthusiastically supported by the current S Main bourgoues and the large amount of housing(customers)in that area(which would include the current businesses + in the former downtown area(which SHOULD eventually grow at some point). OK--maybe you leave this glorified historic mess(which sold for half of what I received for my smaller brick/mortar "plain" small parcel in a distressed neighborhood), and start across the street in the vacant service station lot and proceed behind(west) and down the block to the current nfl Broadway News building(east). This is the prime attractive location--trust me--not the plot suggested by SWOhio75 imo. Maybe condos/apartments on the Sorg lot tied in to the tennis/swimming/golf/dining/meeting options pretty much already connected. Not throwing stones, though Rhodes has not come off to be as bright as I expected in this exchange. Still these topics always seem to take a personal tone, and it usually comes from outside of the regular MUSA base imo. Thank you for your kind words and support, Mr.Nagy. My former business, my family's and my work in this community speaks for itself long term. Those involved and affected know. We have nothing that needs to be defended. Many needy are damned glad that we have been around. |
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swohio75
MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jun 13 2008 Status: Offline Points: 820 |
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Posted: Jun 27 2014 at 8:34am |
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Rhodes
MUSA Resident
Joined: Jun 18 2010 Status: Offline Points: 209 |
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Posted: Jun 27 2014 at 12:08am |
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SJ is not the Donald Trump of Middletown. Running grocery stores is not the same as being a developer. Someone doesn't get to be elevated to some false superiority because they are in the food business. What makes any of you think that nobody else on here is in business? If you can't tell by what I post and what I say on here that I am not some bump on the log, then that is a pretty ignorant stance to take.
I'm going to say this for the last time since so many of you are out in la la land. I have never ever suggested or implied or outright said that I support tax dollars going to any historic preservation of any kind. I mean seriously, this is completely unbelievable how some of you are more interested in arguing with someone who is actually on your side over something petty. I'm sorry some of you put SJ on a pedestal. Like I told him before, I usually agree with most of what he posts, but he has no idea what he is talking about when he suggests demolishing the Sorg Mansion and replacing it with businesses where no sane business person would ever invest their own money. Instead of owning up that he was just being provocative, he decided to dig his heels in and make a mockery of the whole topic. Low and behold, the regulars can't wait to jump in and make a comment thinking they are going to win a non-existent debate. Reading is really important. Comprehending what you just read is even more so. Researching before you post is another key to having a reasoned discussion. Juvenile jabs when you have no idea what you are talking about or you post emphatically denouncing something nobody has proposed makes you all look like fools that do it... regularly. Next time you post, know your words and know them well. Before clicking that post reply button, maybe read that link you throw out there or the 500 line diatribes you copy/paste thinking it makes you look smart, when it just makes you look lazy and pathetic. Maybe someone should come on here and post more photos of corvettes so you all can waste another 2 pages like you did a few weeks back. Research, research, research... You can talk all you want about how affluent you think you are, but dumb is dumb all day.
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Paul Nagy
MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jan 11 2009 Status: Offline Points: 384 |
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Posted: Jun 26 2014 at 11:21pm |
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Rhodes and Historic Guy,
You were on good ground but now you have lost ground. What right does one part of town have over other parts of town to get millions of preferred dollars over the years to the detriment of the entire city and every citizen including you. Those dumb lights have nothing whatsoever with historic restoration and you and everyone else knows it. It has to do with a few people trying to get their way and raising their property values at taxpayers expense without any regard to everyone else's property values. Their token contributions to the lights are laughable if it weren't so serious. As Rhodes so well pointed out downtown development by this Council and Administration is a joke and they have no idea what they are doing or how to do it and never have had. We don't need your knowledge or mine to tell us that. The city's negative losses tell us that and so does every real estate agent in the past and present and future tell us that. That is above and beyond what recession has done to us. Its one thing for you to talk about historic restoration on a specific building or lights but all you say is moot because of its subjective nature. It has nothing to do with abusive, corruptive practice to a cities progress (lack of it) by individuals who would rather have power than democracy and who would rather have their special interests than the betterment of the majority of middle class citizens who are leaving in droves. So lets get on with the discussion over the lights (to major in minors) if thats what you are of a mind to do rather than deal with the real issues of city councils total failues to meet the city's needs in ANY area. But don't expect those on this forum to buy into the mole hills when there are mountains that they have been dealing with for years. Better yet, don't waste any more time on the lights and lets talk about council and the administrations motives, failures and actions. Those other conversations are just efforts to distract others from the real issues and we all know it. Further, when you take on someone like SJ regarding business you aren't even in the ballpark. His business experience and expertise is proven over decades in a much wider frame of reference than both of you. His extensive contributions ( and his families) in time, service, finances to this city in so many numerous ways over decades are almost unparralled by any one currently living. pn |
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Mike_Presta
MUSA Council 
Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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Posted: Jun 26 2014 at 10:43pm |
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The sad thing is that there was a very simple alternative that was proposed to, but rejected by council:
Let all of the South Main Street folks who wanted such decorative lights to ENHANCE THEIR OWN PROPERTIES, put them just a few feet away on the other side of the sidewalk on their own property, wired to their own electric meters!!! Of course that would've cost them (collectively) about $5,400 per year in power costs every year to achieve what THEY wanted, but everything else would've been about the same, including aesthetics. Why did they reject this idea??? The only thing I can think of is that they figured "Why should we pay that $5,400 every year when we can foist it off on the rest of the taxpayers!!!" |
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Mike_Presta
MUSA Council
Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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Posted: Jun 26 2014 at 10:29pm |
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Firstly, the City Engineer's own Staff Report to council stated that the phony gas lamps (I believe the number was 42) on South Main Street would cost $450 per month MORE in power usage costs than the standard street lights (I believe the number was 11) that they were to replace. This $5,400 annual cost will go on EVERY YEAR, from now until the end of time, to be borne by ALL city residents, NOT just the residents of South Main Street.
Secondly, it now appears that the new, phony olde tyme lights don't give off as much light as was expected, so the existing modern street lights will REMAIN to actually light the streets!!! This means this whole cluster-f*** will cost the citizenry even MORE every month in power and maintenance, from now until the end of time!!! Great job, Council!!! Lastly, regarding the olde tyme, phony gas lamps, HistoricHouseGuy wrote: "they're spaced out further then your normal street light so they don't need to run as many to get the job done". This is absolutely incorrect!!! The olde tyme phony gas lamps are much lower to the ground, so they do not cast light nearly as far as the modern street lamps that they were SUPPOSED to replace. Therefore, they had to be spaced much closer together, resulting in about a 4 or 5 to 1 purported replacement ratio. There were about 42 to 45 olde tyme, phony gas lamps proposed to replace about 11 modern street lamps, as I recall. (The actual figures are right here on MiddletwonUSA somewhere if anyone has the gumption to search them out.) |
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Rhodes
MUSA Resident
Joined: Jun 18 2010 Status: Offline Points: 209 |
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Posted: Jun 26 2014 at 9:25pm |
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Here's a quick follow up on those street lights. I did a few checks on street view. Turns out several streets in Middletown already have similar street lamps that were recently installed on South Main. Mostly newer neighborhoods, like off Miller Rd. They're also on Flemming, where it runs along the golf course. Same for Milton Rd. The Oaks has them as well as DaVinci Dr. I'm assuming the ones on South Main are a little larger. Are the ones on South Main 4x costs of the street lamps in some of the locations I just mentioned or 4x the cost of the utility pole lamps they replaced?
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