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Thoughts on Liberty Center?

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Trotwood View Drop Down
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    Posted: Sep 06 2014 at 8:30pm
Just wondering about your guys' perspective on this upcoming development:


The same group, Steiner, built The Greene in Beavercreek/Kettering, and it was rumored that if it had not been built there it would have been built in Middletown. (I am sorry, feel free to call BS at the moment but I do not have the time to search for the specific DDN article where that rumor was referenced).


So, do you all care about this development? How do you feel about its design? Will you patronize it? And would you prefer to shop at this place or Bridgewater Falls by Hamilton, assuming they were equidistant and the store was exactly the same (and not offered in Middletown?)
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itsamee View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote itsamee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 09 2014 at 11:16am
I think it might have been too close to Beavercreek to be successful if it had been put here in Middletown (but what do I know? I am not a businessman). But, I do think that the Town Mall property should be re-thought out to be something along these lines, maybe just not that grand. We have seen for years that the traditional mall is failing and the open air malls are doing better (like Bridgwater falls, The Green, etc.). Is there a way to destroy more of Town Mall and make it more outdoor, or even a mini version of Liberty Center? 
Itsa me, mario!
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Bocephus View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bocephus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 09 2014 at 5:43pm
My thought is, just another strip mall.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trotwood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 09 2014 at 6:38pm
Originally posted by itsamee itsamee wrote:

I think it might have been too close to Beavercreek to be successful if it had been put here in Middletown (but what do I know? I am not a businessman). But, I do think that the Town Mall property should be re-thought out to be something along these lines, maybe just not that grand. We have seen for years that the traditional mall is failing and the open air malls are doing better (like Bridgwater falls, The Green, etc.). Is there a way to destroy more of Town Mall and make it more outdoor, or even a mini version of Liberty Center? 

Sorry, I should have been more explicit.

The rumor was The Greene would have been built in the East End development in Middletown, not the Liberty Center.


As for Towne Mall, I am not sure what the current owner is intending to do, but they did successfully recruit Burlington Coat. Given the trend around here and across the nation to use big-box anchors to fill large chunks of mall space, and the mall's single-story floorplan, it seems like an easy remodel to me. Land a new cinema (like Cinemark, which just recently built a very successful theater in Piqua by their mall), and put it in the lot facing south. Fill the remaining spaces with big-boxes, like Gabriel Bros, Five Below, Marshall's, CitiTrends, etc., and blow out the south mall walls so they can have both interior mall access and outside parking. 
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Trotwood View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trotwood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 09 2014 at 6:40pm
Originally posted by Bocephus Bocephus wrote:

My thought is, just another strip mall.

Sure. I'm kinda with you on that. But what is Middletown's response?

You all are spending god knows how much on giving AK subsidies and paving a bunch of roads to nowhere. Keep it up and you guys will be the "hole of death" between prosperous Northern Cincy and prosperous Southern Dayton.
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FmrMide81 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FmrMide81 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 09 2014 at 6:56pm
"will be"??? Dude, Middletown  has had a death grip on the title "hole of death" for a couple decades now...
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Trotwood View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trotwood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 10 2014 at 7:41am
Originally posted by FmrMide81 FmrMide81 wrote:

"will be"??? Dude, Middletown  has had a death grip on the title "hole of death" for a couple decades now...

You ain't seen nothing yet.....


This is the type of "hole of death" I'm talking about. You guys have no clue how good you have it, or how far it can fall.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FmrMide81 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 10 2014 at 9:14am
Well golly gee Mr.Trotwood-aren't we lucky to have such a fount of wisdom like you! I've traveled throughout South America and West Africa and they would kill for the hovels you use to illustrate how bad things are-so get off your high horse.  
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Trotwood View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trotwood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 10 2014 at 3:49pm
Originally posted by FmrMide81 FmrMide81 wrote:

Well golly gee Mr.Trotwood-aren't we lucky to have such a fount of wisdom like you! I've traveled throughout South America and West Africa and they would kill for the hovels you use to illustrate how bad things are-so get off your high horse.  
I don't appreciate the attitude. And yes, you are all lucky to have me posting here - but I'll address that in a separate paragraph.

What I posted is about as bad as it can get in America. You can thank our status as a first-world nation for the fact that is the barrier to poverty and blight and that it cannot get much worse. So no, Middletown is not going to become the places you mentioned, not so long as we have safeguards like the minimum wage, good public services, easily accessible and affordable healthcare, etc. 

But what YOU seem to not understand is that Middletown is NOT, I repeat NOT at rock bottom. It can get worse, and if it continues to go the way it does, it WILL get worse. 


And to why you are lucky to have me - have you all ever noticed there's not many of you here and even fewer postsP? 
Have you noticed that new members rarely show up on this forum and those who do get booed out quickly? 
Have you noticed Hamilton, what 10 years ago could have been universally dismissed as "Hamiltucky" or worse, is booming while Middletown is in its current state? 
And do you all remember that just over 10 years ago, the Towne Mall was 100% occupied?


This stagnation has happened quickly, and individuals like you and other frequenters of this forum are holding the city back. You all like to portray it as a gradual decline, but it was not. It happened fast. And progress is not coming fast enough. Instead of lobbying for common-sense efforts to make this city more livable, like promoting the efforts downtown, pushing for decreases in infrastructure built for a city twice Middletown's size, and for increasing regulations on the companies that pollute your community to use as tax dollars to beautify the city, you all instead criticize.... let me see...

 - The fire department
 - The public schools
 - Anyone who has an idea on city council
 - Business owners
 - Obama.

Did I miss anyone? Wait, I did... Poor people. Lots of hate on poor people.


So basically, I don't understand the hate. I don't understand why you all want to revert back to _______ year when everything was supposedly better. It wasn't. And those days aren't coming back. Look ahead and see what is coming.... and work to make it better. Until then, stop the whining. 
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Rhodes View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rhodes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 10 2014 at 6:45pm
Trotwood, the decline for Middletown has been going on for a few decades now.  The mall was not 100% occupied 10 years ago.  It was rarely 100% occupied in the 1980's.  It's always been a mall that had 1 or 2 empty spots at any given time, even in its heyday.

Nothing happened fast.  Middletown is what it has always been.  It is a predominantly blue collar town.  It used to have a larger base of white collar workers until surrounding communities surpassed what Middletown was able to offer as a midway city to two metropolitan areas.  It used to be the only place to live if you or your household had to frequent Dayton and Cincinnati.  With the growth of Springboro, Liberty Township, & West Chester, that is no longer the case.  The upper income earners that used to somewhat balance out the high majority of blue collar in Middletown no longer exist in the percentages that they once did.  As more and more of those types moved away from Middletown, the test scores declined.  It wasn't anything the teachers or school board were doing.  It was dealing with the loss of an important demographic.

Hamilton and Middletown are similar in that they are both heavily populated with mid & low income to zero income earners.  That's not attractive to most upper income earners as a community worth investing.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  If somebody wants to make Middletown a success, they should cater to the people that actually live there.  That would include stopping investment dollars in a pretend art district downtown.  Real art buyers do not frequent places like what is set up downtown.  PAC and similar type places seem to attract arts and crafts.  That's fine and all, but that does not draw crowds.  The sad part is, a lot of the people involved with promoting the art crowd downtown are not real art buyer types and do not understand that world.  Therefore they end up with what is going on downtown right now... basically stagnation.  I know, some people are convinced what is going on down there isn't so bad, but it really is.  It's a waste of tax dollars.  It does not benefit the community as a whole.

People voicing their opinions on MiddletownUSA are not the problem.  The posts on here, the concerns on here, are all rooted in wanting Middletown to be a successful town.  The reason others try to shame people for posting on here is because they are weak.  Weak people that can't handle criticism.  Weak people that can't accept the fact that they don't know what they are doing.  Weak people that have grandiose ideas, but forgot about something as simple as a demographic study.  Weak people that can't seem to open a business unless there is free tax money involved.  So that's what you all look like to not only people who post on this site, but to most people in the city.  You all look completely ridiculous.  Stop telling posters on a web site why you can't turn the city around with your ideas.  Accept your defeat that you don't know what you're doing.

The only successful thing I've seen downtown in years is the Broad Street Bash.  I'm talking about a truly successful event.  Look at the photos on Facebook that get posted from those events.  That's your demographic.  Cater to those people and you can improve the city.  You're not going to change what Middletown actually is.  Just to clarify, I'm not dogging on the crowds at those events.  I'm just making the point that you can tell from the photos, it's a group of average Americans in general.  If you don't know what I'm talking about, check out other community pages on Facebook and look at the crowds at their events.  Totally different worlds.  It seems like most of the people in power in Middletown think by decorating downtown they will attract a more affluent crowd.  Sorry, but it doesn't work that way.  Going online to blame posters on MiddletownUSA won't work either.

By the way, Steiner has never considered Middletown for any development.  That's what you call a fake Middletown rumor.  Somebody makes a call, the developer says "we'll look into it" and all of a sudden... did you hear?  Steiner is considering Middletown for _______.  Never happened.
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VietVet View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 10 2014 at 8:54pm
Trotwood:

"And to why you are lucky to have me - have you all ever noticed there's not many of you here and even fewer postsP?
Have you noticed that new members rarely show up on this forum and those who do get booed out quickly?"

OR, the people who show up here never intended to post, just read to receive a different prospective that what the city mouthpiece, the Journal, offers them. Perhaps they read the posts to gain information that would never be posted elsewhere. Perhaps the readers are as apathetic in getting involved in city affairs as they are in registering and voting.

Trotwood:

"This stagnation has happened quickly,"

This is not correct Trotwood. I have lived here the better part of 65 years and have seen the good times and the disaster we see now. The last decade that could actually be considered as successful in this city is the 60's. The 70's, 80's and 90's brought us a continual flow of inept city leaders, both in the city building and on council, making city destroying decisions like the City Centre Mall, Lake Middletown and the Bicentennial Commons, all failed attractions that have either been torn down to the tune of 13 million bucks (City Centre Mall) or a total catastrophy like Lake Middletown, which cost the city $350,000 in fines from the EPA and Army Corps of Engineers for removing a levy before approval and letting silt flow out into the river uncontrolled. Bicentennial Commons has been the "best of the worst" projects, but is now a bust as a result of non-use. Hell, they built a parking lot across the street for all the parking needed for the Commons. Laughable. Not to mention the continuous attempts the last three decades to bring life back into the downtown area. We are now on the "artzy theme". When they get tired of trying that (and wasting millions of dollars trying), they will let that die for awhile, then, when they think the public has forgotten the old theme, will initiate a new theme, that, historically, will also fail. There is no one smart enough in the public sector (city building planning) that can pull off success in the downtown, but you will never convince them of that. The best chance of revival is to turn the whole darn area over to private investors who will gather with a game plan for development. The city is the problem in the development of the downtown, plain and simple.

Trotwood:

"And progress is not coming fast enough. Instead of lobbying for common-sense efforts to make this city more livable, like promoting the efforts downtown, pushing for decreases in infrastructure built for a city twice Middletown's size, and for increasing regulations on the companies that pollute your community to use as tax dollars to beautify the city, you all instead criticize.... let me see...

- The fire department
- The public schools
- Anyone who has an idea on city council
- Business owners
- Obama."

Promoting the efforts downtown is not a common-sense idea. As Rhodes has stated, the arts theme for downtown will NEVER attract a large contingent of Middletown residents. We are a blue-collar steel town. Always will be a blue-collar working town more likely to like NASCAR, football and beer rather than the opera, polo and wine-tasting. You can not build culture into a sea of blue-collar middle/lower middle class people. They will never accept it. Never raised in a cultured environment.

The schools?? A whole lot wrong on the schools. Too large of salaries. Too many duplicate positions (multiple assist principals for each school for example). Too little progress on indicators and proficiency testing. Too much focus on getting levies passed and not enough focus on academic progress. Teacher's union always in the way and way too influential. If the topic involves the schools in this town, it usually turns negative real fast.

Anyone who has an idea on council???? Well, let's see. Council's strings are controlled by MMF. They sponsor and supply the pipeline to the council seats. Council members sit behind that desk every other Tuesday just to legalize what MMF wants for this town. The town plan is geared toward the desires of the influential few at the expense of the out-of-the-loop majority who have no sayso in the decisions made in the city in which they reside. Has been that way for decades. A government of exclusion for the majority. Hey, just look at the condition of this town and you tell me if any councilmember has had an "idea" that has made any real difference.

Business owners? The city has it's horns in the business owners as to regulations for signs, color of building, sidewalk access for tables, licenses, who can open shop in town and who can't (Marty Kohler has that job as well as regulating the "historic preservation laws governing home ownership in certain historic areas of town. Kinda like a Mega HOA. Childish as well as comical in a sense.

Obama?

Alot of people liked the guy in the beginning. Now, not so much, including me. Not just Middletown USA bloggers hatin' on the man. A large percentage of the nation is too.

We don't hate poor people. We hate the flagship program of the poor people, Section 8. Has too many freeloaders, a major overabundance of it in Middletown attracting a few undersirables from out of town that sometimes cause crime issues that we don't need in this city and does not put a time limit on benefits drawn so there is no incentive to rise above their dilemma. A constant sponge on the working taxpayer. We work, they lay around and draw off our taxes, essentially stealing out of our paychecks. Wrong.


I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spiderjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 10 2014 at 10:03pm
wow--interesting
blaming musa contributors for the condition of the community in which we live currently, have lived for decades, and have ALWAYS wanted to remain a blue ribbon community

nothing against the trotwood person, though WHY are we lucky to have you on this forum?
what have you done for us and our community?
you seem to be sensible and fundamentally sound, however your last few posts about the mall and the former downtown area seem rooted in lack of understanding what has been going on and is really going on here.

the blame game---why?
plenty to go around, mostly centered on a condescending attitude prevalent in our city building since the City Center Mall was planned and created. The thinking that the white collar population loss would be countered, and that new progressive businesses would come because we have so much to offer was borderline crazy. We have lost what made the town flow, and have been left with what drags the town down.

The town is a shell of what it was. The people that mattered have either left or are so disillusioned with decisions made, that they have withdrawn from everything including discussion on how to right this ship. Their silence and lack of involvement screams the reality.

Will it come back?
In some ways yes--in other ways no
Few have ever been successful in re-creating the past, as seems to be our "leaders'" goal. We must become a different community with a new widely geographical union of business and quality of life amenities(which we have lost one at a time).

Unfortunately, we are not currently an attractive community to outsiders--potential residents or businesses.

Blaming the contributors here is very convenient scapegoating to avoid responsibility and reality.
I thought that Rhodes summed it up very well.
So--blame me--call me whatever you want.
I can hold my head up as to how I have worked, participated and contributed to this community for my entire life. Amd so have many, many others who are not happy with Middietown's current status and direction

jmo--flame me blame me
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trotwood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 14 2014 at 10:44am
Thanks for the replies! Glad to have them because they made me realize I need to clear up a few points.

1.  I should have been more clear in what I talking about when I discussed decline. I understand Middletown has always been a blue-collar steel town, I grew up there myself and I know how it is. But, things can go downhill from there. If I were to use one image to sum up the Middletown I knew,it would have been a elderly blue-haired lady smoking a cigarette while driving a power chair down Central Ave. near Verity. What worries me is that image will change from the blue-haired lady at that street corner to ghetto thugs or prostitutes. I'm not sure if any of you have realized this, but I didn't choose the username "Trotwood" by accident. I chose it as a warning. That's why I post what you all may consider to be radical, unfounded POV. I'm going off of what I learned from a community that was very similar to you demographically 10 years ago. Look at where it is now.

2.  I blame you all because you are a very vocal subset of a majority mindset within Middletown. As I mentioned earlier, I grew up there, so I know many individuals that say, basically, the exact same things you all do on here. So I will assume it's a majority opinion within Middletown. There's a belief nothing can be done, paired with a burying of your heads in the sand of what's coming if nothing changes. Many of you think everything is going ok enough that just posting rants on this forum or complaining about the school board will make a difference. I'm saying it's not enough. I'm also saying that if you all took your downtown revitalization efforts seriously, took time to volunteer and beautify the community, took your ranting and directed it at AK to reduce their pollution (or just run them out of town), then you would have a beautiful, under-valued community with a great housing stock. Paired with a lot of prime real estate from AK with good highway and rail access. 

3.  Rhodes, you bring up some excellent points. I agree that the key is to cater to the demographic that is already in Middletown. That will bring success, yes. But I'm arguing that the demographic is changing, and that's why I reference a "fast decline" over the past 10 years. If you really want me to nit-pick, the start was the first day of the AK strike around 2005. All that I am saying is that to keep a nice community, you all need to counter this change. I can't because I don't live there anymore. So do that by supporting people who have ideas and want to make positive changes. Don't support people who want to destroy your community for a quick buck, like the new Power Plant people. Recently, I noticed you all doing an excellent job of this on the Spinning Fork thread. Mad props from me for what I saw on there. As an outsider, reading that thread made me want to come spend money in Middletown at the Spinning Fork. I'd really be happy if I saw some of that same enthusiasm for new businesses in Towne Mall or anywhere in the community. 

4.  Vietvet - great post. Cleared up a lot of what I misconceived about your guys' stances on the issues I posted above, they sound like serious problems. Stupidity like that would cause this town to go down in flames, and maybe that's some of the reason I've noticed things getting worse over the past 10 years in particular. I will get to the City Centre debacle in the point below. The only thing I will ask in return is how many people of Middletown really know about Middletown USA?  It sounds to me like if more knew what was really happening, then more could happen to get positive change. I said before I believe individuals like yourself are still the majority, even if that is rapidly decreasing to becoming younger minimum-wage workers who cannot afford anywhere else to live. Could you capitalize on it and get more traffic on here?

5.  Spiderjohn - let's talk about City Center Mall. Obviously that was a giant, looming failure for years and years in the city. It was a beacon of why downtown was considered to be useless and outdated, while the "nice" area by the mall was the future. But I think we are at a turning point now where we can say the mall is useless and outdated (or at least at a point where it will change character quite a bit, because it should be a simple re-work with Burlington and similar retailers like Rhodes would advocate coming to town). What I'm saying is that if Hamilton can pull off a nice revitalization downtown, why can't Middletown? Or Dayton or Cincinnati or the hundreds of other cities that have revitalized their downtowns in basically the same ways? It may be slow, but it can happen. The only major disadvantage I see Middletown having when compared to Hamilton is the pollution. That's why I harp about it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote over the hill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 14 2014 at 3:18pm
City hall has sucked our coffers dry. With Judy gone I hope we can begin an upward climb toward prosperity. We all want that. Get ride of the "special interest" backers and let's work toward the good of the entire community. We have to get rid of "no vision" "taking up space" people on our city council.IMO
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