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Vivian Moon
MUSA Council Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187 |
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Oh yes I remember it well….those good old days In the summer the streets and parks were filled with kids
playing games and on really hot days the three pools in Trotwood, you are concerned about pollution? Do you know
what goes into making all the chips that run all of these devices that you just
can’t live without? Channel 9 News video |
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VietVet
MUSA Council Joined: May 15 2008 Status: Offline Points: 7008 |
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Vivian:
"Pollution is not Middletown’s big problem Middletown is know for...Reputation….Schools…Crime…Poverty… " And Vivian, could you elaborate on how we got this reputation, poor schools, high crime and rampant poverty? It wouldn't be because we invited those elements to town and the aftermath of the ghetto development theme for revenue that brought the town to it's knees, would it? Wonder who could be at fault for that decision? |
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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.
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Vivian Moon
MUSA Council Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187 |
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Vet |
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VietVet
MUSA Council Joined: May 15 2008 Status: Offline Points: 7008 |
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Vivian:
Do you mean to tell us that the majority of the problems concerning reputation, crime, the poor school reputation and the perceived ghetto-like condition of this city, are a direct result of the actions of those who were placed in charge of running the city and the schools but were so inept in doing so that the city and schools are now a disaster? If this is true, I wonder why anyone would get on this forum and support those types of people who would intentionally ruin a once decent city because of their inability to guide the city using logical, progressive methods for the good of the people rather but chose self motivated means to use the city for their own selfish enrichment motives and those of a select few? Why, that sounds almost criminal in nature. |
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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.
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over the hill
MUSA Citizen Joined: Oct 19 2012 Location: middletown Status: Offline Points: 952 |
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well, city hall, If the shoe fits......
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Trotwood
MUSA Resident Joined: Jul 22 2013 Status: Offline Points: 117 |
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+1. Couldn't have said it better myself.
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Trotwood
MUSA Resident Joined: Jul 22 2013 Status: Offline Points: 117 |
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Good points Vivian. I added an additional bolding in your first paragraph, because it highlights what I'm trying to illustrate well. Also, I was not able to access your video link - is there a hyperlink? Anyways, to your question - yes, I know exactly what goes into those chips. It's horrific. The best video I know of to show how exactly the process is destroying our environment is here (c/o 60 Minutes): Please take time to watch the whole clip. It exposes a lot of evil. And yes, it'll make you think twice about buying the latest electronic gizmo. Yet another reason besides being a broke college student why I choose to spend as little as possible, and when I do make "luxury purchases" I normally use them for nicer meals and products from local vendors. Anyways, what Middletown was like 50 years ago or today is of course nowhere near as bad as shown in the video I linked, but I hardly find it an apt excuse for the pollution. Healthy communities aren't built around poison. Think about other steel towns, mining towns, heck, even logistics towns in today's society (check out this article for info there): But back to the questions/comments you and VietVet posed - as I understand it, the basic philosophy is: 1. Middletown was great _____ years ago. 2. Middletown was killed by city leaders because _______. 3. Middletown is still being killed because ________. I hear a lot about steps 1, 2, and 3 but never about step 4 - the step where things get fixed. There are ways, as a community, to get things fixed. As noted earlier in this thread, this forum is an excellent avenue to make change happen. It gets a lot of traffic. With that traffic, maybe some action could be motivated. Like with Weatherwax was on the chopping block, I saw encouragement from John Beagle to go golfing there, but I never saw a "Middletown USA Golf meet-up to save Weatherwax", for instance. Ms. Moon, you as well take action by getting council minutes and posting them on here, which does make a difference in who is truly informed. But to get stuff done, why not take it as far as you can until you start to see results? Even if you all threw around a hey let's protest ________ at ________ time because ________, that'd be cool. Send your message by being present in the right place. It's easy to ignore one, harder to ignore 10, near impossible to ignore 100. Heck, if you threw a protest against wasting money on demolitions, I'd even show up! Complaining on here quasi-anonymously does only so much good. Especially when those whom you are complaining about might not be very receptive to criticism. But anyways, let me get back to your direct point - Middletown is known for... Reputation...Schools...Crime...Poverty. You're right, it is. And yes, right now those are probably the primary reasons why people don't want to move to Middletown. How is it going to get fixed? Hamilton is a great case study of this situation. 15 years ago, when I was in Middletown, it was run-down but overall not too bad of a place. Visually it looked fairly good. Contrasting with Hamilton, it looked far better, cleaner, and nicer. But now look which city is cleaner, nicer, has better schools and overall is doing better - Hamilton! (pun slightly intended). Why? Because Hamilton has done an excellent job capitalizing on the resources it already has, from its built downtown to its neighborhoods and diverse industry base. Admittedly Hamilton is not perfect, but it's to the point where on paper it makes just as much sense for a family to relocate there as Fairfield does. That's a long ways from Middletown, which honestly could not be considered a viable alternative to Trenton, Monroe, or even Franklin in its current state. Middletown could do the same as Hamilton if it took some bold actions. Like increasing taxes on heavy industrial users who actively pollute the community. Like reducing boulevards into two-lane streets with bikeways and other public spaces. Like saying NO to the new power plant and YES to allowing community gardens and public use areas, temporarily, on empty lots where houses and industry used to stand. Even following in the footsteps of Welcome Dayton would be a good start (again, I'm looking directly at Hamilton's sizable Hispanic population here). This stuff doesn't have to be expensive. In fact, it shouldn't be. What city leaders should try and do is build the best possible community for those who ALREADY LIVE IN MIDDLETOWN and stop worrying as much about trying to throw a bunch of money at things that don't improve quality of life, like the interchange landscaping, or at businesses without a plan. Having these quality of life amenities will draw people in, help give them a better life that doesn't revolve around the vices that are in Monroe, and succeed as productive tax-paying citizens. That's all I'm saying. The good days can come back. Sure, they'll look different, but with the right vision it's possible. Those walkable communities you referenced, the time where people actually interact with one another - it can happen. If you don't believe me take a trip to OTR in Cincy, Troy, the OD in Dayton, or Covington KY. It can happen, the infrastructure is already there. What it needs is use. And that requires supporting what your city already has and not tearing it down all the time. Unless y'all want to end up like the Inland Empire...
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Perplexed
MUSA Citizen Joined: Apr 22 2009 Status: Offline Points: 315 |
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Over The Hill, Acclaro, Vivian, Etc. -
I'm hearing that there may be financial ramifications involving the past Section 8 Program concerning the City of Middletown and HUD. Could this be true Herr Dougmeister and Mr. Fooks? If so, could the damage be in the millions? |
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Vivian Moon
MUSA Council Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187 |
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Trotwood said: I hear a lot about steps
1, 2, and 3 but never about step 4 - the
step where things get fixed.
There are ways, as a
community, to get things fixed. As noted earlier in this
thread, this forum is an excellent avenue to make change happen. It gets a lot
of traffic. With that traffic, maybe
some action could be motivated. Like with Weatherwax was on the chopping block,
I saw encouragement from John Beagle to go golfing there, but I never saw a
"Middletown USA Golf meet-up to save Weatherwax", for instance. Dear Trotwwood, I have been protesting for years, probably
long before you were even born. I have painted enough signs to fill a small
house and walked hundreds of miles getting signatures on petitions for various
causes at local, county, state and national levels over the years. I have taken
many of the issues that I have posted about on this blog to the next level and
also helped others with the needed research to win their battles against City
Hall. I want those that read this blog to have the facts and be well informed
about how City Hall is spending their tax dollars. Even if you all threw
around a hey let's protest ________ at ________ time because ________, that'd
be cool. Send your message by being present in the right place. It's easy to
ignore one, harder to ignore 10, near impossible to ignore 100. Heck, if you
threw a protest against wasting money on demolitions, I'd even show up!
Complaining on here quasi-anonymously does only so much good. Especially when
those whom you are complaining about might not be very receptive to criticism.
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over the hill
MUSA Citizen Joined: Oct 19 2012 Location: middletown Status: Offline Points: 952 |
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Trout wood, there are been many on this blog that HAVE taken up signs and even spoken before council. Some of those people have seen their businesses more or less boycotted afterwards. The click gets together and remarks are made and ...... and it begins. Word of mouth is your best advertisement and your worst.
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spiderjohn
Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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ironically, Trotwood, if you addressed city admin/council with your issues, you would receive a cold silent stare, a "thank you for coming" and expressing your views, then you would be thrown on to the same "negative citizen/troublemaker" pile that the rest of us are in.
First--our city must admit that these situations exist--be honest on the problems from past decisions--remove all responsible for these pas failed concepts and actions--and embrace a more broad group of citizens and ideas to collectively work toward solutions. After your anticipated pollution comments, the mic/camera would have shut off, and you would have been dismissed as another problem person that must be frozen out and ignored. We are the cheapest local area to pollute, and have been for decades. Any agreement? |
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acclaro
Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jul 01 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1878 |
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Yes on all of the above.
Middletown will always be an industrial city, as is Charlestown, WV, Ashland, Mansfield, Detroit, etc. The city has been reactive for too many years, not proactive. From my vantage, any attempt downtown for revitalization is a head fake; a feeble attempt to show those whom the city doesn't want to leave associated with disposable income, the city is making certain amentities available, ergo, restaurants other than national chains, drinks, culture, available. Focus on keeping people in, not bringing them in from other communities. |
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'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill
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Trotwood
MUSA Resident Joined: Jul 22 2013 Status: Offline Points: 117 |
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haha I would definitely believe it! Those who makes waves aren't the ones who make friends, as I've found out many times myself (if you can't tell from my track record on here haha). Definitely makes me have a lot of respect for Ms. Moon and her above comments about her history. Anyways, you do have a lot of excellent points. In particular I like the part I bolded in your above statement. You hit the nail on the head there - what's needed is more community involvement so following the failed plans can be stopped once and for all. As far as I know, you are also correct that Middletown is the cheapest place to pollute in the area at the moment. But if the right dis-incentives were in place (i.e. higher taxes, more regulations, etc.), the polluters would go to other places lik Colerain Twp. by Mt. Rumpke, SW Dayton, or even further away like Portsmouth or Gary IN. What I'm asking is that something you all want for your home? (I'm assuming most of you own property in city limits). I understand some dirty jobs have to get done, but why in your own backyard? I pose this question because I don't see, as a 20-something, how Middletown could ever be competitive as a residential city with all the polluters it currently has in town. So I see two options for Middletown's future: Option 1 happens when a livable, walkable, and social community is created, complete with amenities unique to Middletown and a distinct positive culture. All it would take to get to this point is pursuit of some of the current efforts, re-focusing on school quality, and a tough stance on pollution to get people out of their houses, on their feet, and walking/jogging/biking etc. in the community. Option 2 buys them out when (and only when) the market dictates low enough housing prices to justify wide-scale demolition. In the meantime, deterioration would occur. Then, everything in sight is bulldozed and converted to heavy industrial use. Minus the industry, a great nearby example of where this is happening is about 20 miles up Rt. 4 in West Dayton (and yes Trotwood as well, which is one of the reasons why I use it as my username). This option would also be easy to get to if the city continues down its current path of providing good tax incentives for polluters, demolishing viable buildings, and continuing to create a negative and hostile environment for its residents. That's why I've been frustrated with the negativity against some of the improvements downtown, because those are great strides toward Option 1. Sure, it may be a small group of Gilleand et. al. trying to seek personal glory, but at least those efforts provide good amenities for the people already in Middletown. I will agree that maybe throwing money at art isn't the best avenue, but the Manchester Inn plan would go a long way towards providing a more positive community. As does the brewery that opened up, park renovations, bike trails, etc. I think someone even mentioned a potential minor league team upthread - imagine the potential that could have! All it needs is some support. Look at where the Dayton Dragons are today - a story, originally, of unprobable success to the longest record of sold-out games in history (all 14 years of operation and counting!) So when we chat, I can see you all are very interested in the well-being of Middletown. And you all do a lot to support it. But the negativity at times is stifling - it stifles ideas, new thought, even the notion that progress could ever happen at all. And from our discussions I can almost be certain this is the attitude (or worse) City Hall gives to you all and everyone else in town now. So it might not be ideal, but all I'm saying is maybe if you guys were more supportive of what's happening downtown and more supportive of the city's future through visiting these facilities you could all make Middletown a better place. Because people would see you there, know you go and like ______ places, and they will go too. And then their friends in town do the same and so on. From what I've seen, that's the best way to really get involvement, motivate people, and make positive change happen. There's already a lot of great resources in town, show there's demand for more and better.
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VietVet
MUSA Council Joined: May 15 2008 Status: Offline Points: 7008 |
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Ok Trotwood, for your understanding, from a long time resident of this city. These are my comments and don't necessarily reflect others on this forum....
Trotwood: "Those who makes waves aren't the ones who make friends,"...... I don't want to be friends with those that are running this city and don't care what they think of those who question their nonsense. They have done irreparable damage to this town and it should have been stopped a long time ago. They are not my kind of people. They are the enemy and a cancer and they need to be run out of town. Blunt, but truthful. I hate it when society thinks that those who make waves are the problem. Can't stand when the label of "disgruntled" is used without trying to understand why one may be disatisfied with the way things are. They may have good reasons but no one ever asked, but rather just labels them. Perhaps they don't want to know as it may indict their actions. History shows us that those who make waves have changed things for the better.....Example- the Revolutionary War. The protests during the Vietnam War. Some occasions of civil disobedience are necessary when things are obviously wrong coming from those in charge. IMO, it has always been an option to question authority when one believes them to be wrong. Of course, one risks the chance of paying the price for doing it, but sometimes it must be done or a correct outcome has no chance of happening. Trotwood: "That's why I've been frustrated with the negativity against some of the improvements downtown, because those are great strides toward Option 1. Sure, it may be a small group of Gilleand et. al. trying to seek personal glory, but at least those efforts provide good amenities for the people already in Middletown." The negativity is two-fold. First, they have wasted millions of taxpayer dollars on THEIR AGENDA. Secondly, they NEVER ASKED "WE THE PEOPLE" WHAT WE WANTED for OUR DOWNTOWN that was paid for from OUR TAX MONEY. They used our tax money, devised this nonsensical arts/culture crap for their OWN PERSONAL GAIN AND INTEREST, and left us out of the whole affair. Should insult most who live here. What has transpired downtown does not "provide good amenities for the people already in Middletown" if most are not interested in those amenities provided. If most are not interested in what's offered, what good is it? Trotwood: "So it might not be ideal, but all I'm saying is maybe if you guys were more supportive of what's happening downtown and more supportive of the city's future through visiting these facilities you could all make Middletown a better place. Because people would see you there, know you go and like ______ places, and they will go too. And then their friends in town do the same and so on. From what I've seen, that's the best way to really get involvement, motivate people, and make positive change happen. There's already a lot of great resources in town, show there's demand for more and better" But some of us don't like what is going on downtown and as such, will never support a thing it offers. WE DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE PROGRAM like others do like processor and middiemom. They like what is offered downtown and believe in the gameplan. I do not and think it is the wrong fit for the demographics of this city. The people downtown do not understand what the MAJORITY of people in Middletown are interested in or they would have offered it by now. IMO. the whole concept of development needs to be changed to accomdate a more middle-class,blue-collar crowd that would draw many more people down there. Cultural things are not what this town is about. Working class things are. Trotwood: "I pose this question because I don't see, as a 20-something, how Middletown could ever be competitive as a residential city with all the polluters it currently has in town. Trotwood, a little history here......Middletown use to be a heck of a lot more polluted than it is now. Armco was going strong. There was Sorg Paper, Wren Paper, Crystal Tissue, Raymond Bag, Black Clawson, Aeronca, and all the metal fabricators in town adding to the pollution. Back in those days, the EPA and all the new safety and pollution regulations were not in place. Scrubbers were not on the stacks. Chemicals were dumped in Dick's Creek or in a back lot pit on the company property. No control at all like nowadays. YET, MIDDLETOWN WAS STILL A HIGHLY DESIRABLE PLACE TO LIVE AND WORK. One of the better communities around the area for opportunities to enjoy a nice living and life. It didn't need to compete back then because it offered residents and people considering moving here opportunities. Bottom line......even with the worst pollution from industry here, it still maintained a decent population level back then. Question for you as an environmentalist.... If a town like Middletown would offer many industrial employment opportunities for people that included decent livable wages and a decent standard of living, do you think some pollution would keep them away? IMO, people will flock to where the decent wage and job opportunities are and "look the other way" if pollution is an issue. JMO |
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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.
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Trotwood
MUSA Resident Joined: Jul 22 2013 Status: Offline Points: 117 |
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^Lots of good points as always Vietvet. I'm currently in a time crunch, so I am sorry but I'll have to address your other points later. For right now though I wanted to address this point:
Nope, employment opportunities like that wouldn't keep people from working in Middletown, you are right. But they sure as heck wouldn't live there. As proof, I'll ask - how many employees who work at AK and can afford to live outside Middletown choose to do so? Want more proof? AK's HQ is now in West Chester, and one of the big reasons is because West Chester is closer to where AK's actual corporate employees live. It's also considered to be a more "desirable" community. I would assume the lack of pollution is a factor in this assumption. JMO.
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processor
MUSA Resident Joined: May 07 2013 Status: Offline Points: 151 |
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Trotwood,
In my opinion AK moved their headquarters to West Chester for four main reasons. 1. There is no income tax in West Chester 2. There were few amenities in Middletown for entertaining customers and the office was not in a pretty area 3. West Chester was closer to where executive management lives (east side of Cincinnati) and wasn't too far for all of the employees who still live in Middletown and the local area. 4. The executive management lost confidence in city government The biggest reasons were convenience for executive management and no income taxes again for executive management. I know many AK corporate people and don't know any who live in West Chester. Pollution had about ZERO to do with it. |
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Vivian Moon
MUSA Council Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187 |
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Ahhh, Trotwood,
how I love the minds of young people. |
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VietVet
MUSA Council Joined: May 15 2008 Status: Offline Points: 7008 |
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Trotwood:
"As proof, I'll ask - how many employees who work at AK and can afford to live outside Middletown choose to do so?" I DON'T KNOW THE NUMBERS OF AK EMPLOYEES LIVING OUTSIDE THE CITY BUT I CAN GUESS WHY THEY WOULD CHOOSE TO DO SO. I KNOW YOU ARE REFERENCING POLLUTION HERE AS THE REASON WHY AK EMPLOYEES WHO CAN AFFORD TO LIVE ELSEWHERE CHOOSE TO DO SO. HOWEVER, IMO, IF A SIZABLE NUMBER OF AK EMPLOYEES CHOOSE TO LIVE OUTSIDE MIDDLETOWN, IT HAS VERY LITTLE TO DO WITH POLLUTION AND EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE POOR SCHOOLS, VERY FEW ENTICING NEIGHBORHOODS REMAINING, HIGH CRIME, POOR IMAGE, POCKETS OF GHETTO DEVELOPMENT, AND OVERALL GLOOMY MALAISE/INEPT OPERATION WITHIN THE CITY. IMO, POLLUTION PROBABLY WOULDN'T EVEN MAKE THE TOP TEN LIST OF REASONS TO NOT LOCATE TO MIDDLETOWN. I BELIEVE YOU ARE GIVNG THIS POLLUTION THING WAY TOO MUCH CREDIT AS THE CITY CULPRIT FOR TURNOFFS REGARDING THIS CITY. Trotwood: "Want more proof? AK's HQ is now in West Chester, and one of the big reasons is because West Chester is closer to where AK's actual corporate employees live. It's also considered to be a more "desirable" community. I would assume the lack of pollution is a factor in this assumption" YOU ARE CORRECT ON THIS. BOTH AK AND THERMO BLACK CLAWSON (I WORKED FOR THEM AT THE TIME), ANOTHER LONGTIME MIDDLETOWN INDUSTRIAL INSTITUTION, BOTH LEFT MIDDLETOWN FOR A SIMILAR REASON........THEY WERE CONCERNED WITH COMPANY IMAGE. NEITHER WANTED TO BRING IN CUSTOMERS TO THE MIDDLETOWN ENVIRONMENT. BLACK CLAWSON MOVED THEIR OFFICES TO MASON-MONTGOMERY RD.....MUCH MORE MODERN AND DESIRABLE AS TO IMAGE AND PROFESSIONALISM. SAME WITH AK TO WEST CHESTER. UPSCALE BEATS GHETTO SCOURGE ANYTIME AS TO IMPRESSING CUSTOMERS. AGAIN. YOU CAN THANK YOUR MIDDLETOWN CITY LEADERS OVER THE LAST 3 DECADES FOR THE DEMISE OF THE BUSINESS CLIMATE HERE IN TOWN. THEY SAT BACK AND LET IT HAPPEN WHILE HAVING A WINDOW SEAT TO OBSERVE THE COLLAPSE. INEPTNESS RUNNING THE ASYLUM. |
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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.
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Vivian Moon
MUSA Council Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187 |
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Processor
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acclaro
Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jul 01 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1878 |
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AK Steel left Middletown as a top priority because the strike at the Middletown Works was such, they did not want to tether their corporate identity and reputation to a city getting such bad press, and a site getting bad press associated with a labor dispute. The other reasons cited are correct. AK knew years prior to many, what direction Middletown was headed----south, they wished to head north in reputation.
TROTWOOD, if Middletown had no success in the years prior to the current effort in building downtown, ergo, the years it had a city mall with a roof, the years the roof was removed, why do you state it is important now? The city decline in population began 15 years ago, when the city was in its phased approach to build downtown a 2nd or 3rd time.. |
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'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill
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swohio75
MUSA Citizen Joined: Jun 13 2008 Status: Offline Points: 820 |
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Income tax my guess was one of the biggest reasons. I remember Dickie Wardrop suing the city of Middletown on what he was required to pay because he was trying to claim days worked outside of Middletown (at other plants, offices, suppliers) should not have been included in calculating wages in which to levy the city's income tax against. |
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acclaro
Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jul 01 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1878 |
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The problem on local tax as a basis for a move would be it would only amount to a material benefit if the city he/she lives, did not claim a tax rate. If one did not reside in West Chester, you'd pay your locale taxes, if they were required. I believe Indian Hills does have local taxes. As Middletown has taxes, those that work in West Chester still pay the 1.75%. Therefore, taxes were a distant reason IMO.
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'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill
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processor
MUSA Resident Joined: May 07 2013 Status: Offline Points: 151 |
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Income taxes were one of the MAIN reasons. Indian Hill has a .6% tax versus 1.75% in Middletown. On $3,000,000 it's a difference of nearly $35,000. Some of the exec's live in a township where there is no tax.
This is one thing that really bugged me about the AK HQ move. I'm convinced that a lot of the reason for moving was for the exec's convenience and not necessarily for the good of the business. I'm also told though that the upper management was encouraged not to live in Middletown so that they wouldn't get to know personally many of the people at the plant and this way wouldn't let emotions get in the way of business decisions. I don't subscribe to this philosophy but know many who do. |
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acclaro
Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jul 01 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1878 |
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I don't disagree any manager or employer would not want to take advantage of West Chester's dual 0 tax rate for payroll and residential living. But, Kurt Reich, who arguably is the no 2 exec as EVP of supply chain, procurement, lived in Middletown for years in the historic house in what is now the Highlands area and Nix is head of process innovation, and lives in town. Taxes contributed, but was not driver, reputation was, and ability to bring in new talent (younger management- engineers), that wanted better tax base and white collar base. IBM also pushed for move associated with ease of attracting high tech employees for the older employees they brought over from Armco when they began outsource deal.
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'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill
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Vivian Moon
MUSA Council Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187 |
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Processor
I have heard executives remark that they were ashamed to bring visitors or clients to the Main Office because of the over all run down condition of They joked about needing to flying them in under the cover of darkness. |
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