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Vague Change we can believe in...

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    Posted: Oct 24 2008 at 2:02pm
Yep.. one tap on the "enter key" or lack there of, can cost you.
 
 
“Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power.” Benjamin Franklin - More at my Words of Freedom website.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Beagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 24 2008 at 2:02pm
Thats a bit Scary coming from Obama's running mate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Beagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 24 2008 at 2:00pm
http://www.middletownusa.com/view_news.asp?a=3800
 
Looks like Jonathan got the tip! Thanks Andy. But you need work on your link, lol:
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arwendt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 24 2008 at 1:54pm
Good work Pacman.
Jonathan you may want to read this post:
http://www.middletownusa.com/view_news.asp?a=3800
“Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power.” Benjamin Franklin - More at my Words of Freedom website.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pacman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 24 2008 at 1:22pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Middletown News Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 24 2008 at 12:00pm
Kenya: Barack Obama’s Other Change

Pillie Says:

As American citizens we are outraged at the failure of the Press to report pertinent facts surrounding the candidate Barack Obama and this and other associations, and believe that on the eve of our elections, this gross censorship may have placed our Democratic government and Natiional Security in “Clear and Present Danger.”As citizens for the Truth in Media, we demand the story of Obama/Odinga be reported to the American people in time to learn the facts before the November elections.We hereby petition CNN, MSNBC, ABC, NBC, The New York Times, Washington Post and FOX TV NEWS to report this story and give it the attention it deserves as a LEAD Story NOW, before it is too late.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pacman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 24 2008 at 11:15am

Statement on the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008

Ron Paul Speech to Congress

September 29, 2008

 

Madam Speaker, I rise in strong opposition to this bill. This is only going to make the problem that much worse. The problem came about because we spent too much; we borrowed too much, and we printed too much money; we inflated too much, and we overregulated. This is all that this bill is about is more of the same.

So you can't solve the problem. We are looking at a symptom. We are looking at the collapsing of a market that was unstable. It was unstable because of the way it came about. It came about because of a monopoly control of money and credit by the Federal Reserve System, and that is a natural consequence of what happens when a Federal Reserve System creates too much credit.

Now, there have been a fair number of free market economists around who have predicted this would happen. Yet do we look to them for advice? No. We totally exclude them. We don't listen to them. We don't look at them. We look to the people who created the problem, and then we perpetuate the problem.

The most serious mistake that could be made here today is to blame free market capitalism for this problem. This has nothing to do with free market capitalism. This has to do with a managed economy, with an inflationary system, with corporatism, and with a special interest system. It has nothing to do with the failure of free markets and capitalism. Yet we're resorting now, once again, to promoting more and more government.

Long term, this is disastrous because of everything we're doing here and because of everything we've done for 6 months. We've already pumped in $700 billion. Here is another $700 billion. This is going to destroy the dollar. That's what you should be concerned about. Yes, Wall Street is in trouble. There are a lot of problems, and if we don't vote for this, there are going to be problems. Believe me: If you destroy the dollar, you're going to destroy a worldwide economy, and that's what we're on the verge of doing, and it is inevitable, if we continue this, that that's what's going to happen. It's going to be a lot more serious than what we're dealing with today.

We need to get our house in order. We need more oversight--that is a certainty--but we need oversight of the Federal Reserve System, of the Exchange Stabilization Fund and of the President's Working Group on Financial Markets. Find out what they're doing. How much have they been meddling in the market?

What we're doing today is going to make things much worse.

The process of this bailout reminds me of a panic-stricken swimmer thrashing in the water only making his situation worse. Even a "bipartisan deal''--whatever that is supposed to mean--will not stop the Congress from thrashing about.

The beneficiaries of the corrupt monetary system of the last 3 decades are now desperately looking for victims to stick with the bill after they have reaped decades of profit and privilege.

The difficulties in our economy will continue because the legislative and the executive branches have not yet begun to address the real problems. The housing bubble's collapse, as was the dot corn bubble's collapse, was predictable and is merely a symptom of the monetary system that brought us to this point.

Indeed, we do face a major crisis, but it is much bigger than the freezing up of Wall Street and dealing with worthless assets on the books of major banks. The true crisis is the pending collapse of the fiat dollar system that emerged after the breakdown of the Bretton Woods agreement in 1971.

For 37 years the world built a financial system based on the dollar as the reserve currency of the world in an attempt to make the dollar serve as the new standard of value. However since 1971, the dollar has had no intrinsic value, as it is not tied to gold. The dollar is simply a fiat currency, which has fluctuated in value on a daily, if not hourly, bias. This worked to some degree until the market realized that too much debt and malinvestment existed and a correction was required.

Because of our economic and military strength, compared to other countries, trust in America's currency lasted longer than deserved. This resulted in the biggest worldwide economic distortion in all of history. The problem is much bigger than the fears of a temporary decline on Wall Street if the bailout is not agreed to.

Money's most important function is to serve as a means of exchange--a measurement of value. If this crucial yardstick is not stable, it becomes impossible for investors, entrepreneurs, savers, and consumers to make correct decisions; these mistakes create the bubble that must eventually be corrected.

Just imagine the results if a construction company was forced to use a yardstick whose measures changed daily to construct a skyscraper. The result would be a very unstable and dangerous building. No doubt the construction company would try to cover up their fundamental problem with patchwork repairs, but no amount of patchwork can fix a building with an unstable inner structure. Eventually, the skyscraper will collapse, forcing the construction company to rebuild--hopefully this time with a stable yardstick. This $700 billion package is more patchwork repair and will prove to be money down a rat hole and will only make the dollar crisis that much worse.

But what politicians are willing to say that the financial "skyscraper''--the global financial and monetary system-is a house of cards. It is not going to happen at this juncture. They're not even talking about this. They talk only of bailouts, more monetary inflation, more special interest spending, more debt, and more regulations. There is almost no talk of the relationship of the Community Reinvestment Act, HUD, and government assisted loans to the housing bubble. And there is no talk of the oversight that is desperately needed for the Federal Reserve, the Exchange Stabilization Fund, and all the activities of the President's Working Group on financial markets. When these actions are taken we will at last know that Congress is serious about the reforms that are really needed.

In conclusion, there are three good reasons why Congress should reject this legislation:

It is immoral--Dumping bad debt on the innocent taxpayers is an act of theft and is wrong.

It is unconstitutional--There is no constitutional authority to use government power to serve special interests.

It is bad economic policy--By refusing to address the monetary system while continuing to place the burdens of the bailout on the dollar, we can be certain that in time, we will be faced with another, more severe crisis when the market figures out that there is no magic government bailout or regulation that can make a fraudulent monetary system work.

Monetary reform will eventually come, but, unfortunately, Congress' actions this week make it more likely the reform will come under dire circumstances, such as the midst of a worldwide collapse of the dollar. The question then will be how much of our liberties will be sacrificed in the process. Just remember what we lost in the aftermath of 9-11.

The best result we can hope for is that the economic necessity of getting our fiscal house in order will, at last, force us to give up our world empire. Without the empire we can then concentrate on rebuilding the Republic.

 

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John Beagle View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Beagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 24 2008 at 11:06am
Ron Paul would indeed be the best for our economy. Stocks are falling due to uncertainty. Many believe the new administration will impose taxes on capital gains, plus move up the marginal tax rate.
 
I think both McCain and Obama will raise taxes. We don't have a good candidate in the race in my opinion.
 
Regarding the war, there is only one way to fight. Just like the first Bush, with overwhelming support. Get in, do the job, get out. Or don't go at all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arwendt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 24 2008 at 10:23am
"IMO the worst mistake was to have gone there in the first place"
 
I would say the same thing and if there is one or even two overwhelming similarities between Vietnam and Iraq I would say it is the lack of a clear exit strategy and perhaps the lack of political or popular support to win at any cost.

Though I cannot find it on the internet I remember an interview with a NVA officer who was asked how the north could continue the war after losing every major engagement. The officer responded that they may be the case but that it was irrelevant.
And that is the problem in Iraq.
 
But the withdrawal of US forces from South East Asia and the cutting of funds for ARVN operations ensured nothing short of the Catastrophic loss of life that followed. 

I would prefer that we not repeat that mistake.
“Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power.” Benjamin Franklin - More at my Words of Freedom website.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 24 2008 at 9:51am
arwendt- IMO the worst mistake was to have gone there in the first place under the guise of stopping the spread of communism back then by our government. We ended up killing 58,000+ 18, 19, 20 year old men, losing an unwinnable guerilla war and seeing all the money, training of the South Vietnamese military and police, equipment left over there in the 1975 evacuation of the country all lost for no good reason. Couple that with the war being run by the damn politicians with little to no authority given to the military leaders to do their jobs. We would go out, kill, get a body count to report on the evening news so that the news channels could report how "successful" we were that day toward winning the war. It was all a shame and a lie to the public. What they didn't tell the public was that the US would pull back on territory captured and hand it back to the enemy, just to go out later and re-capture the same territory the next day incuring more casualties. The way the war was run was a joke. The NVA and Viet Cong were very good at what they did. They were on their home turf. It was difficult fighting a jungle war.They would play hide and then seek and kill. Farmers by day- killers by night.As in Iraq, you couldn't tell who the enemy was. The landscape was as big an enemy as the actual enemy was. The big wigs really didn't think about the consequences of that war before launching into it full bore.Again, I see similar things occuring now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arwendt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 24 2008 at 9:14am
All this "Army" talk made me look this up:
 
“Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power.” Benjamin Franklin - More at my Words of Freedom website.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spiderjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 24 2008 at 8:53am
Not Vet, however I see Viet Nam as the larger error.
Govt. was maybe more headstrong back then than the Bush admin.
Still--I defer to Vet's judgement since he is slightly older and was there. I had a student deferment at that time(still have my draft card).
 
Yes Pacman, I liked Ron Paul.
I thought he was totally different and sensible.
I couldn't tell any difference between the others(in either party).
 
My daughter/soninlaw/inlaws all live in Ron Paul's district in Texas, and they all consider him a total lunatic and love Bush. Go figure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arwendt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 24 2008 at 8:38am
So VieVet to help us understand your views on Iraq.... which was the bigger mistake:
 
To have left Vietnam the way we did or to have gone there in the first place?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 24 2008 at 7:01am
Pacman- yes, I agree that Iraq is a safer place than before-in certain areas of the country. Given that acknowledgement, the point I'm trying to make here is that whether we do it McCain's way and stay until we are able to "come home honorably" (as he says) or we leave in 16 months as Obama wants to do, the situation in Iraq will be the same. I predict that after the US presence is gone(whenever that is), there will be war between the Sunnis, sh*tes and Kurds with a dose of Taliban thrown in for good measure. There will be mass chaos and the country will be in turmoil until the winning faction gains control.The US backed Iraqui government will fold like an accordian and all of our efforts will have been wasted. Again, based on fact and history, when we left Vietnam in 1975, it didn't take long for the NVA and the Viet Cong to sweep down on Saigon, break through the embassy gates, remove the South Vietnamese flag and replace it with the North's flag. While that was occuring, the South's police and soldiers, trained by the US, peeled their uniforms off, left them in the streets and attempted to "blend" back in with the populace. So much for the money spent, effort wasted and lives lost on a people that after all we did for them, refused to defend themselves when it became crunch time. I see a similar scenario happening when we leave Iraq. So, IMO, why stay and kill more soldiers for a people who couldn't care less and for a country that we will never be able to stabilize permanently while wasting millions of dollars per month that are urgently needed here at home? This is not logical to me.As to your charts- did you ever think that it could be possible that the enemy would like the US to think the surge is working and are waiting for the right moment (9/11) to mount a counter guerilla plan to destabilize this "surge"? The enemy is not stupid, knows the country, conducts a "hide,seek, kill" type war involving a blown up Humvee here and a car there, taking out small groups. They strike and they run and hide.We look for their hiding places in the area we suspect they are in and they strike somewhere else. They're sneaky, they're deadly and they are good at the game of quick strike tactics. Hard to beat an enemy who conducts that type of warfare.JUST LIKE VIETNAM. IMO- many similarities.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pacman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 23 2008 at 9:36pm
Ron Paul???????????
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spiderjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 23 2008 at 7:51pm
Similar to Clinton and GW---I like Obama, however I despise all that surrounds him.
I really have grown to dislike McCain surprisingly.
 
Obama and McCain both sat silently through the bailout vote crisis, refused to directly/specifically answer ?s about what they would do or change because of this crisis, then both voted quietly FOR the bailout once the big pork sandwich was added.
 
I have no use for either of them.
Crapped on by the left or crapped on by the right--you still end up covered with dung.
 
Biden has been part of the problem for over 30 years, while Palin is just face time.
 
Ron Paul was the correct choice imo.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arwendt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 23 2008 at 4:59pm
Obama is so likeable it kills me.
“Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power.” Benjamin Franklin - More at my Words of Freedom website.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pacman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 23 2008 at 4:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arwendt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 23 2008 at 4:43pm
To quote von Clausewitz “War is a continuation of politics by other means.” In German the word is actually “Politik”, but politics is close enough.

But of course as leaders of The State it is always politicians who start wars, unless I imagine if you live in a state ruled by a military dictatorship.

So then we could say that the war in Iraq and Afghanistan are potentially the results of political failures to resolve the matters by non military means. But the last time I looked there were lots of politicians in Washington and you have to admit our problems in the Middle East go back decades. So as someone here said of the economy, I would say here too, and that is there is plenty of blame to go around.

But if anyone thinks Obama will win the hearts and minds of all of our enemies they are sadly mistaken. Many of enemies have beliefs that cannot be reconciled with, or even exist in the same world, as our own. One will prevail and one will fail.
I agree that we must fight the war.
“Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power.” Benjamin Franklin - More at my Words of Freedom website.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pacman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 23 2008 at 4:06pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pacman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 23 2008 at 4:04pm
 
 
Nope Surge hasn't done a thing has it?  Personally I don't think the surge was designed to solve all of Iraqs problems.  It was designed to make Iraq a more secure country for the Coalition forces and so that the Iraqi's could organize themselves Politically, Security wise and rebuild their infrastructure with our assistance.  Vet even you have to admit that Iraq is a safer place now than 18-24 months ago........come on, be realistic.
 
War is not an exact science it doesn't operate on a time line.  You can not predict with any certainty when this will end.  All a publized time line does is give the enemy your plan and objective and they will just wait you out.  Which is exactly what they will do to Obama if he wins and pulls out of Iraq.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote .308 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 23 2008 at 3:56pm

Just to jump in here:

I Disagree with it being too late because it’s never too late to stop making bad decisions. Obama wants to impose a politician’s agenda on the war. McCain wants to leave it to the generals. One of these is a bad decision.
 

Disagree with the Bush taking total responsibility for the war. He did not ask Hussein to bar UN inspectors. He did not ask Hussein to make countless threats against us. He did not cast the votes on behalf of Congress authorizing the use of force.

 

I have no problem with disagreeing with how the war is being fought, but I sincerely believe the war in Iraq and Afghanistan must be fought.

 

And of course I also disagree that we learned nothing from Vietnam. But since I doubt VieVet meant it in a literal sense I’ll give him a pass on that one. LOL

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Middletown News Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 23 2008 at 3:39pm
I want to go on record as saying that GW was worse than BC on economic policy.
And his biggest falure is helping the fed to ram rod all these bailouts thru congress.
 
Obama or McCain we are in for alot of pain. Sitll I would rather see a more fiscally responsible country, Obama leans the wrong way. Sorry. I have to vote for McCain.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 23 2008 at 3:20pm
arwendt-Same position again?You're too late. We are already in that position. Have been for 5 + years. G.W. Bush, your president and politician, directed the country to war, strong arming using executive priviledge on almost everything he did. This war was started by a politician(s), just like Vietnam was. We learned nothing from Nam both politically and militarily. No, the new president, whoever it may be, must live with and clean up this cluster started by the current administration. (Same with the economy with shared blame placed on both the Repub controlled and Dem controlled Congress.)
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