CITIES GOING BROKE

LMAO wrote: Would someone please buy A.J. a toy firetruck.

Would someone please buy A.J. a toy firetruck.

chmoore1 wrote: Vet:  Bottom line is, we agree on this problem being too big to resolve.  All I was looking for was for you to stop excluding yourself from the "problem" side.  This is the first time that I know of that you have included yourself with the masses.  Previously, you always made it sound like "all of these other people are wasting my money."  Now, you understand that you have also been within the system.  I'm not excluding myself, either.  It's part of the culture that we live in. Friends?  "I've got my share of friends. How 'bout you? Do you have any that will admit it?"  I have you beat on the friends' deal  I have one more than you have----I have you.    chmoore

Hell, I knew I was part of the problem because I'm one of many who keeps allowing the ones who run the city to conduct "business as usual" while doing nothing more than complaining about the way they do their jobs. I am as guilty as the rest for allowing them to continue their ways instead of organizing and making the change needed. Same way at the state and national levels too. We all complain....we all want to do something about it.... we all want to "throw the bums out"..but for me, I can't find the solution to make people want to actually organize, especially in this town. You can't get more than 10 people to show up at meetings. I don't have a clue why people won't come to the meetings that have transpired over the years. Lazy? Too many family activities and no time for community meetings to change things? Enough interest to complain but not quite enough to act? No clue what is happening in this town? Don't care what is happening in this town? Or all of the above? Dunno. But I do know this.....the city leaders are counting on this to continue as it does them a tremendous favor by not having to worry about any citizen resistance nor recalls. They love our apathy....and we are losing the battle because of it. They win everytime because we don't have enough people to force the issues. We are no threat and they know it. Sad.

And so it is ch.

"The day when Viet Vet has finally had to admit that he is part of the problem, and not part of the solution"

I was cast into the "problem" as it involves working in this "wasteful" environment due to requirements of the job. The situation is too large for either of us to find a solution. Are you part of the solution? Have you found the answers? Unless you're the poster boy for the solution for government waste, your criticism of me is misdirected and really has no value. You too, are part of the problem if you have worked in the public sector as to waste of taxpayer dollars.

"Oh, by the way, is my coffee ready?"

If you qualify with a background check and have a need to be on base, come and get your coffee bud. Got a hot cup right here for you. While here, you can enjoy all that your tax money buys. We might even let you go the gym or grab a chair or two out of the dumpster for the old house.

"What a hypocrite"

Aren't we all to some extent? glass houses ch. glass houses.

"You must be a joy to work with"

I've got my share of friends. How 'bout you? Do you have any that will admit it?

EVERYONE DOES IT TO SOME DEGREE." My point exactly

Uhh, that "EVERYONE" includes you ch. Why are you excluding yourself from this when you are a part of that "EVERYONE"?

OK ch. I won't waste my time nor yours discussing the differences between the public and private sectors. We obviously will never agree on this topic so both of us are wasting our time on the one-upsmanship thing. You continue to enjoy your side of the fence and I'll enjoy mine.

By the way, I'm here at work on YOUR government computer, but I am on my time....my choice for some peace and quiet. It is 5:58AM and I don't start until 7:30AM. Been getting to work 1 1/2 -2 hours early for 6 years now. Open the labs, turn on lab equipment and make coffee for the people coming in at the regular time. No one else in the frikkin' parking lot. Does that rate an atta-boy on your surveillance of my time since you are the self-imposed spokesperson for the taxpayer.....(I'm a card carrying taxpayer also, by the way)....or doesn't that get me anything on your grading scale?

If you're gonna fire all who use the computers here on base for personal reasons such as reading on-line newspapers,etc., you will need to fire the entire base personnel including contractors, government workers and the military people too. EVERYONE DOES IT TO SOME DEGREE. Quit being so naive. It's government run. Hell, they let us have access to You Tube. Got some other news for you too ch. Since you are the Tax Money Time Ranger and are so concerned about the use of time on base for YOUR tax dollars invested, there is a base gym where active/retired military, active/retired government people and contractors go to exercise. They take anywhere from and hour to 2 hours to do so. They even shower afterwards which wastes more of your precious tax dollars. And YOU helped pay for the gym! Some people even leave base for lunch and take more than an hour to eat. Others go to retirement or job transfer gatherings at a restaurant and take more than their alloted time to do so. Dam 'em!!!! And hey!....you wouldn't believe what they throw away in the dumpsters here on base. Chairs, tables.....all paid for by YOUR tax money. Might want to put that down in your little book of time/money wasting catastrophes (with YOUR tax money of course) ch, there is time management waste in the military, public and private sectors and in union and non-union shops. I wouldn't get my panties in a knot about my situation. ALL of us do it, no matter where you work. Been going on for decades. I'm quite sure you have had your share of time wasting over the years too, ESPECIALLY if you have worked in the academic or public sector worlds. You ain't no saint on this either. glass houses ch, glass houses.

And now, if you don't mind ch, I'll read the Journal on-line.

ch says....."However---consider this: you work for a government contractor at Wright-Pat (from what you have said). GUESS WHAT???? We taxpayers pay for your wages and benefits."

Nope ch. Not exactly true. The Air Force is but one small segment of my company's business clients. All of the funds collected for doing work for both private companies, as well as for the government is placed in one large company pot and divided appropriately. The money collected from government contracts at WP does not translate to usage only for employees who do government work. I am a taxpayer also, not just "we taxpayers" as if to exclude me from having taxes taken out. If we use your thinking, the tax money collected from my private sector paycheck goes in the same till that your money goes in, therefore, along with you, I am contributing to my own wages being paid. We all contribute so climb down off your high horse on who is footing the bills here.

"Those contractors pass that right along to us---maybe I should be bitching that you have time to post "HERE IN FAIRBORN ON A GOVERNMENT INSTALLATION" at 2:22 in the afternoon, probably on a government purchased computer"

Ever hear of break time ch? We process samples, test samples and there are lulls in the activity at times. It's research work ch, not constant production work. A big difference between the two. That government computer was purchased by all of us including you AND I. The government installation is here because of taxpayer money from you AND I. It ain't just you ch. It's all who have taxes taken out.

"Remember, for everything that you complain about, the rest of us can complain about the same thing with you-----WE are paying YOUR wages and benefits, and with so much free time on your hands, maybe we should do a time-study for efficiency."    chmoore

Wrong again ch. You are not paying my wages and benefits. The public doesn't pay the wages/bennies on private sector jobs. The private sector companies obtain their money through customer money paid for work done and from that, company operations, wages and bennies are paid. The private sector does pay on public sector jobs through taxes taken from our paychecks and from levies. My employer is a private sector entity. Again, the WE in your statement also includes me as they take taxes out of my paycheck, just like they do yours. You must not have a clue about research work or you wouldn't have made the comment about having so much free time on my hands. (Incredible that you would be concerned about "free time" and be a defender of public unions and public jobs.....not exactly stalwarts for maximum time usage). If you're in the academic world as indicated by your defense of teachers and/or public unions, I wouldn't be throwing stones. You may not realize it but you live in one big glass house in the public sector. An easy target for criticism. The picture has been painted as to what the public sector is all about and most of the time, it isn't flattering. Glass houses ch, glass houses.

"Vet: the current rate for social security "contributions" BY LAW is 4.2% up to $110,100 earned income"

ch!!!! I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT Social Security "contributions" taken out of the paycheck at 4.2%!!!!!I'm talking about what the employer removes from my check to help them pay for the health insurance premiums they offer the employee in the benefits package. Totally separate from Social Security! The 15% has NOTHING to do with Social Security.

Social Security is also taken out of the paycheck at 4.2% I AGREE WITH YOU ON THAT POINT. So are FED and STATE taxes. I must deal with the city myself as no city tax is taken out here in Fairborn on a government installation. I was eligible at 62 for SS. Passed on that. Will be eligible at 67. Not enough monthly either. Will pass on that. Will work for 6 more years til the age of 70 giving me 51 years of working. That's about right per month on the SS check.

"Next: not paying near 15% for medical insurance?"

Well I am each pay period. Help my employer with the dental premium too. Have been for several years now.

"Employee premium is approximately $150.00/month".

That ain't squat. I'm paying over $300 per month for my Anthem coverage for the wife's medical problems.

"I watched Middletown's renegotiations with their teachers last year. "Frozen" wages, 1% reduction this year, 1% reduction next year".

How about all the previous years and in better times when the raises eclipsed those given in the private sector? It all evens out eventually. These are bad times. Everyone's getting little to nothing in raises.....public and private sectors.

"Private sector for bachelor's degree, at least upper 30's to low 40's."

No rhyme or reason in assessing pay in the private sector. I worked at IP and was in the 40's with no bachelor degree but with over 35 years in a lab. At P&G, they pay technicians in the high 20's to low 30's to start...lousy pay for such a hot shot company. At Mobay Chemical, alot smaller company than P&G, the pay started in the mid 20's. It's all over the map with companies. Can't place definite figures on pay nowadays with any private sector company....large corporations or small family owned ones.

"Is your battle with unions or that some people have a better life than you?"

Both. When I see the union factory floor worker owning a bass boat, momma driving a Cadillac Escalade, Junior driving a new Mustang, and dad driving a new Chevy Diesel dually, and all living in a $300,000 house, and I, who worked every bit as hard out on a frikkin factory floor on all shifts, living well below that, I get a little "anxious". IN GENERAL, the union worker is offered just a tad bit better standard of living than the non-union worker with equivalent skills. No problem.....doesn't really matter anymore. What matters is.... I've got 6 more years to go. Then they can shove it where the sun don't shine after 51 years. THAT'S MY REAL GOAL HERE CH. I'm just frikkin' tired and grouchy.

"You work at Wright-Pat for a contractor. Is the contractor union?"

Nope. Don't need a union. They treat us ok as to bennies, wages and decent on a daily basis. Nice employer as a matter of fact.

Need to respond to one of your comments Irisner.....

You state:

"Of course Mike had to mention the public unions like the non thinker that he is. The unions are not the problem."

They are certainly PART of the problem in contributing to cities going bankrupt. The demands over the years, the cities (taxpayers) paying either all or a large portion of the premiums for your bennies in health, dental and retirements, the increased salaries over the decades demanded at the negotiation table with cities conceeding to the unions......all have contributed to the draining of the city pocketbooks. The Teacher's Union is a big culprit in this. That's why the school people are always trying to stick it to us with levies....to cover the cost of the greedy little Teacher's Union coupled with their high salaries awarded through tenure. Paying little into their retirement fund as opposed to the private sector. Paying 9% at most when the private sector has been paying 15%-20% for years to help their employer cover health care/dental/vision premiums. Yeah, the union folks have had it soft the last decade as to out of paycheck deductions. Time to level the playing field with you people paying more......like the rest of us have been doing.

Irisner also states:

"Let's just get to my program of cutting ALL staff by 30%. Cut all all "activities" that don't pay for themselves (ala Middfest). That would be a start........oh. yea I forgot. You WANT the current numbers of employees, just like Judy wants her stuff"

I'll go you one better than the 30% cuts Irisner. I want to see ALL the people in the city building cut. I want to see city government restructured with less Directors, no more assistants to the assistants and incorporate department job duties if possible. I want the city manager, planning director, law director and econ. dev. manager gone too. Start over. Hire competent people for replacements. The people we have now are not smart enough to run this city. It is apparent by the shape it is in both physically and financially. Hire less people in the higher positions and more people who actually do the work. Too much high level fat in the city building.

I would mention how this all is the direct result of the destruction of the middle class due to the very type policies that most of you espouse on here but know that it would be wasted on this forum, so i will just ask what would be so bad if the city just went bankrupt?

That is the inevitable conclusion that most of the Cities are going to have to suffer before the needed restructuring comes. Of course Mike had to mention the public unions like the non thinker that he is. The unions are not the problem. Any civilized person would never expect the servitude type worker that the comment suggest. the problem is that people like Mike want what the City can't afford, the current number of public safety personal that we have .  It is strange that people like Mike are like that given that they quickly bitch when someelse want the city to spend/buy other things that we can't afford. I guess overspending is only OK if it is what Mike wants. Typical knothead thinking.

Let's just get to my program of cutting ALL staff by 30%. Cut all all "activities" that don't pay for themselves (ala Middfest). That would be a start........oh. yea I forgot. You WANT the current numbers of employees, just like Judy wants her stuff. Your all the same, that is why there will never be change. If the economy doesn't drastically turn around where growth solves the problems , Middletown WILL go bankrupt.

I guess there wasn't much interest in this show.  Much like most else in Middletown I suppose.

There were alot of similarities with Middletown in this show:

For those that missed the show last night, It runs again tomorrow at 9pm on FOX NEWS.  It is a very a informative and well done show on what could become the future of Middletown. 

Thanks Pacman