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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote processor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 24 2013 at 11:01am
Acclaro...OK I'll bite.  What is the correlation between city responsibilities and school responsibilities?  How does one cause the other?
 
I agree that no one wants to move to a city with poor roads and other infrastructure.  Concurrent who wants to move to a city with a poor middle school in a lousy area of the city?  Think of it as school infrastructure.  I believe that it's a necessary pre-condition to getting more people to consider moving to Middletown.  Of course there is much more that the schools district must do .. such as getting the academic performance up...but the infrastructure is one of the ingredients.
 
Universities do have 100 - 200 year old buildings.  But they have been modified and rehabilitated many times over the years.  Why would you want to spend that kind of money on Middletown's Middle School when you can't change the location and would spend about as much rehabilitating as building new?  That would be a waste of money.
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acclaro View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 24 2013 at 11:41am
processor, I disagree with every point you made.

REBUTTAL:

1) It is natural in any city there is a correlation between the city's actions, or lack of, and the school system. How do you square the city's Master Goal Plan of having a city of nearly 25,000 (a 50% reduction in population), with a school district's goal to build and add students? They are diametrically opposite. If the city has high taxes and property values that are high, with a Master Plan objective of reduction, in turn, these goals again, are in opposition.  Moreover, the city and school Board have openly acknowledged their symbiotic relationship with one another many times, whih obviously is the basis for the school leadership moving into city hall. That is axiomtaic, and is a non rebuttable position.

2) Poor Location of Vail Middle School? And that is supposed to keep students from attending school, nd parents moving in? Perhaps you should phone Larry Mulligan and Dr. Owens at Cincinnati State, and explain that logic. Isn't it downtown, where Vail is located, which is in rebirth, a renaissance? Rather contradiction is it not processor, that it is a fiem area, very desirable to those attending college, but a poor, blighted area, for those aged 13-16 years old. Illogical argument.

3) Cost/ Benefit Analysis- So 250 year old schools have been retrofitted? And the cost benefit analysis was such, it was cheaper to destroy in a declining school population (someone made a trend observation in a matter of years, perhaps 8, the middle schools and high school could be merged based upon student decline). It appears logical with student decline, consolidation of existing schools is practical. Additionally, there was no plausible or remotely accurate evaluation it was more economically feasible to build, to start again, than do modifications to the school....NONE. As for colleges and universities, many buildings have radiator heat, open windows, and even fireplaces (The Lawn at UVa has fireplaces in each room- the kids survive).

4) You presented to facts to substantiate it is more economic to build than maintain existing assets.

Consolidation into existing assets in a tonw of declining population is highly logical, not expansion awaiting what may come. It won't. Finally, to your point that new schools lead to better scores and performance, to my knowledge there are all new elementary schools. That surely did not raise performance against measures nor increased population. But in your analysis, it must because of that old building downtown where Cincinnati State is supposed to strive, named Vail.

Using your analogy, the city should keep the golf course and airport for a few more years, and rebuild them, as ambiguous costs of ownership including maintenance, are going to be higher than replacement. I bet you lease a new car annually as well.
        
'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote processor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 24 2013 at 12:54pm
Acclaro,
If it is true that the city master plan is to reduce the population by 50% then I agree that it makes no sense to build a new middle school as all of the students will fit into the existing high school.  However, I can't find anywhere in the master plan the objective of reducing the population.  On the contrary what I read points to the objective of growth.  Please show me where in the master plan that the objective is to reduce the population.  Regarding the school office move to city hall, the administration's and board's objective, as reported, was three fold.  1. reduce cost 2. provided a safer area for district employees to work.  3. potentially improve communications between city and school district personnel.
 
The last I looked Cinci State was at least a mile from Vail and served a completely different clientele than Vail.  There is a huge difference between 20 - 30 year olds and 11 - 13 year olds.  Plus I don't see what the location of Cinci State and the Mayor's dream, which may or may not actually happen, for downtown has to do with a Middle School.  Downtown is a wasteland and may or may not turn around.
 
The last report I saw on student projections was that it would remain fairly steady for the next 5 - 10 years.  Regarding rehab cost versus build new cost, the paper reported that the architectural firm determined that the cost of each was about the same.  You'd have to look at his report to see the details.  One thing to keep in mind that a rehabbed building must be brought up to the same standards as a new building you can't pick and choose what to do.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marcia Andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 24 2013 at 2:21pm
Neil Barille and Acclaro: The building project is not intended to expand capacity.  The point is to replace old, outdated buildings with modern facilities adequate to teaching the 21st Century skills that students need to compete in today's global economy.  The state facilities commission will only match costs based on the space needed for their projected student enrollment, going out 10 years.  The state projects that Middletown's enrollment will be basically flat over that 10 year period.  In fact, last year's Kindergarden class was the biggest in a long time.
 
Acclaro: The timing is not our idea.  It is dictated by the state.  They have a pot of money that they are sharing with school districts to upgrade their facilities subject to a sliding scale requirement that the local district pay a percentage of the costs through local property taxes. When the money from the state is gone, it is gone, and there may not be another offer of capital funds for 100 years.  The state 1 week ago called our number, said there is $40 million for Middletown City Schools, provided we pass a bond levy and follow all of their rules and regulations and standards for building and rehabbing. The problems with the Vail building go well beyond the lack of air conditioning (which is a serious problem). It is literally falling apart.  Your unsupported assertions to the contrary, the state conducted a detailed study of renovating to their standards or build new, and determined the costs to be approximately the same. Your comments about old university buildings do not fit with what I have seen on many college campuses in the last several years. At every single one I've been at, they are gutting old buildings leaving nothing old but the facade, and constructing new ones from scratch.
 
Vet: I can't explain any better than I already have why this property will be good for the high school site, without drawing a map, which I can't do on here.  I think anyone who has been to the high school at drop off/pick up or when thre is an event, will agree that traffic flow is very cramped. The drive next to 4500 Manchester is signed as one-way entrance only, but people use it as an exit all the time.
 
Neil Barille: Wildwood CC is indeed hurting. But it is not for sale, and from everything I have heard, those old guys will hang on to their golf course even though it is killing them financially.
 
SpiderJohn: A bond levy will be on the November ballot, for 3.95 mills plus a .26 permanent improvement levy (permanent improvement levy will generate dollars they may only be used for capital maintenance and is required before the state will kick in its $40 million). So, the community will decide. And, the community has been asked for their input dozens of times throughout this 10 year Master Plan process. A majority who participated in the many forums, meetings and surveys support a new middle school and a renovated high school. We will see if a majority of voters agrees.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 24 2013 at 2:25pm
processor; I took a quick peek at the MP. Firstly, its use of population is trended through 2007. Its rather dated. In the last census report, based upon future trends, it was expected Middletown would be below 30,000 in population. I recall reading this was also within the MP, and Mike Presta may be able to comment on the "designed" reduction in population.

As to Vail and C State, hardly a mile; more akin to 500 yards.

The school district office moved as the argument the Vail area was run down, or unsafe, would be diluted with the existing office sitting there. Of course, the added benefit is to share voting block data under one roof.

Finally....architects get paid to design and oversee construction of new buildings, not put in new heating and air systems. Self serving right?
   
'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spiderjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 24 2013 at 5:07pm
MASTER PLAN:
 
I was a member of the last public committee mandated by time period to review and update the plan.
That committee was quietly dis-banded without notice, mostly due to constant lack of a quorum and not a lot of agreement to change much of anything. It was headed by Mr.K, with a couple of cameos by Mr.A. Don't remember reading about or any mention of reducing population or a 28,000 figure. I probably still have a copy of the plan.
 
We had a nice, diverse group who never bothered to attend or be excused, and when the cronies tried to run a 6-member meeting to approve "changes"(by declaring everyone not present removed from the board--thereby establishing the 6 present members as a quorum), a few quickly objected to the method and propriety of the action.
 
Never held another meeting, and never received any notice of the committee being dissolved.
 
True story
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 24 2013 at 7:18pm
I cannot recall if I read this in the Master Plan or some trend report that Marty K put together, but I do recall the number below 30,000. I cannot recall if this was a forecast based upon housing (therefore embedded within housing forecasts) or another reference that came about when the ten year census was taken by the Census Bureau.

Of little importance, other than it is apparent Middletown is shrinking, not growing.

I was contemplating what was the difference between Springboro, West Chester, and Middletown. It hit me in a sentence:

Both WC and Springboro have city leaders and school board members who say openingly:

"If we build this, if we spend that, what does it do to our taxpaying constituent."

In Middletown, the word "taxpayer" and concern are never uttered. 

Find your life vest, before the city and school system takes them all.
'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill
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