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Help Replace One of Ohio's Oldest Schools?

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chmoore1 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chmoore1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 12:26am
Acclaro: also, if a student doesn't "make the grade" at the university,(rank high academically) he flunks out and moves on. In the public school system, he doesn't flunk "out" but stays on---or moves on to another district. just 1chmoore.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 6:07am
MS ANDREW:

"All -- the levy campaign committee made a mistake on the timing of the signs. They were focused on getting signs up before early voting begins April 1st, and didn't realize the 30 days runs backward from election day, not early voting. It was not intentional"

I'M SURE IT WASN'T INTENTIONAL MS. ANDREW. NOW, TO THE QUESTION.....WILL YOU BE TAKING THE SIGNS DOWN UNTIL THE LEGAL MOMENT YOU WILL ABLE TO SET THEM UP, OR WILL YOU DECIDE TO BREAK THE LAW IN TOWN BY DISREGARDING THE ORDINANCE DIRECTING POLITICAL SIGN ACTIVITY?

KEEP IN MIND THAT IN PAST ELECTIONS, SOME, WHO HAVE PLACED ILLEGAL SIGNS HAVE BEEN MADE TO ABIDE BY THE CITY LAWS AND HAVE HAD THEM REMOVED. I WOULD THINK YOU AND YOUR LEVY SUPPORTERS WOULD CARE ENOUGH TO ABIDE BY THE LAW ALSO.

ADMITTING THAT IT WAS A MISTAKE, BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION, AND NOT SEEING IT CORRECTED, LENDS AN AIRE OF DISHONESTY, SPECIAL FAVORS FOR SELECTED PEOPLE/CAUSES IN TOWN AND THE "MISTAKE" COMMENT LOSES IT'S APPEAL, AND I KNOW YOU WANT TO STAY AWAY FROM THAT, DON'T YOU?

I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 6:14am
Originally posted by chmoore1 chmoore1 wrote:

Acclaro: also, if a student doesn't "make the grade" at the university,(rank high academically) he flunks out and moves on. In the public school system, he doesn't flunk "out" but stays on---or moves on to another district. just 1chmoore.


chmoore1, could you tell us how many students are held back a grade or two for academic deficiencies nowadays? During my time in the Midd. schools, it was not uncommon to see students held back a grade, but in more recent times, I haven't seen that to be the case. It is almost as if the school system wants the poor performer/ trouble-maker kids out of their sight and gone, so they pass them to the next level, ready of not, with the sole purpose of purging the kids who are not wanted as quickly as possible.
I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 6:21am
Does this make the upcoming school levy null and void since we now have a violation of election signage? Could this be challenged or is breaking the law acceptable for some in this city?

How about a ruling on this LAW DIERECTOR Leslie Landen. Let's hear your interpretation of what has happened. Got a prediction on the answer. Would be entertaining to see how 'ole Leslie maneuvers around this one using his finest legal jibberish.
I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.
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chmoore1 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chmoore1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 6:47am
VV: no, I can't (tell you how many students are held back a grade or two for academic deficiencies nowadays). However, it doesn't make sense that the school system wants the poor performer/ trouble-maker kids out of their sight and gone, so they pass them to the next level, ready of not, with the sole purpose of purging the kids who are not wanted as quickly as possible. Unless the student moves out of the district, he is still the school district's responsibility. In fact, the district does everything possible to keep a student in the district (graduation rates do count). With this procedure,(purging) the student wouldn't be "purged" until he graduates anyway. Again, a teacher can only work with what they have. If a student's ability and desire isn't there, and the parents' desire to push (motivate the child) isn't there, then the teacher must work with what IS there. just 1chmoore.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 7:03am
chmoore1; Mr. Diehl was a principal and then superintendent, or equivalent. His son in  law is now city manager in Franklin. However, the point was to indicate I comprehend as do most, education is important and we all have relatives whom are in education as teachers or admins.

Secondly, I am unsure what you mean by the statement, Ohio owes Middletown $40 Mm ? You mean because Ohio deemed it unconstitutional )rather, the Supreme Court), and therefore the state set aside funding cycles, and its Middletown's turn in cycle? The taxpayers pay for this rebuilding out of taxpayer money.

I disagree completely that the comparison between an aged college or university school building is apple to orange. It reflects aged buildings are commonly used, while in K-12, common practice is to destroy them. I printed an article out the Dispatch which opines the rationale for Ohio's practice, which is to provide some degree of equity in buildings,  This in part, was to level the playing field and eliminate guilt associated with the lack of proper funding the school system within the state, which property tax is not.

I have repeatedly advocated interactive capabilities is the best means of maximizing a ROI on education, K-12, and higher education, in degree of value, than a physical structure. I also find it strange Ohio adheres to LEED guidelines, but does nothing using solar. Go figure.
'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 7:11am
chmoore1, I missed addressing one of your final points.

Middletown is using a key rationale for the levy, attracting more students through open enrollment, precisely the type of student you describe, the one that academically cannot cut it. In turn, scores stay on CI.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 7:44am
Originally posted by acclaro acclaro wrote:

chmoore1, I missed addressing one of your final points.

Middletown is using a key rationale for the levy, attracting more students through open enrollment, precisely the type of student you describe, the one that academically cannot cut it. In turn, scores stay on CI.


SOMEHOW, GIVEN THE ANEMIC ACADEMIC PERFORMANCE OF THIS DISTRICT, I FIND IT DIFFICULT TO BELIEVE THAT ANYONE WOULD BE ATTRACTED TO OPEN ENROLL HERE. LOSING STUDENTS AT A HIGH RATE I BELIEVE, BUT THERE CAN'T BE MUCH SUCCESS ON TAKERS TO JOIN THIS DISTRICT.

AS TO OPEN ENROLLMENT ATTRACTION, IS IT MORE IMPORTANT TO HAVE SHINY NEW BUILDINGS (BUT NO POSITIVE OUTPUT SO FAR (ELEMENTARIES)), OR WOULD MOM AND DAD BE MORE INCLINED TO SEND JUNIOR HERE BASED ON HIGH ACADEMIC EXCELLENCE (WHICH HAS BEEN ABSENT SINCE THE 60'S HERE), EVEN IF IT WERE IN OLDER BUILDINGS. DOES NO GOOD FOR JUNIOR TO GO TO SCHOOL IN NEW BUILDINGS IF HE COMES OUT OF THEM NOT KNOWING HOW TO ADD, SUBTRACT......WRITE A COMPLETE SENTENCE.....OR BALANCE A CHECK BOOK. ALSO DOES NO GOOD TO HAVE NEW BUILDINGS HERE IF THEY GO ON TO MUM AND MUM HAS TO SET UP REMEDIAL CLASSES TO BRING THE MIDD KIDS UP TO FRESHMAN YEAR POTENTIAL. JUST FLAT OUT SOUNDS LIKE SOME OF THE KIDS WHO EARN A HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMA FROM THIS DISTRICT, AND WANT TO GO ON TO COLLEGE, ARE UNPREPARED FOR THAT NEXT STEP.

POSITIVE CONTENT, NOT NEW BUILDING SURFACE FLUFF IS THE REAL ISSUE, ISN'T IT?
I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.
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chmoore1 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chmoore1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 7:47am
Acclaro: you wrote: "Secondly, I am unsure what you mean by the statement, Ohio owes Middletown $40 Mm ? You mean because Ohio deemed it unconstitutional )rather, the Supreme Court), and therefore the state set aside funding cycles, and its Middletown's turn in cycle? The taxpayers pay for this rebuilding out of taxpayer money." My statement was simple: currently, the State of Ohio---whether it was unconstitutional, etc. or not---will provide Middletown with $40M to proceed with their Master Plan if Middletown passes its levy now. If it doesn't pass now, the money will go "poof" and will be lost to Middletown. I understand that we, the taxpayers of the State of Ohio, have provided that money. God, this gets monotonous having to explain everything again---things that have already been discussed in detail. As a response to the "open enrollment" statement, the number of students brought into MCSD by open enrollment is minimal. However, keeping the number of students LOST to other districts has been mentioned by Sam Ison in his statements. Once again, my statement on comparison of State/Private colleges to K-12 renovations is that colleges renovate on an entirely different level than public schools; therefore, the cost is extremely high, and the ability to recoup their "ROI"---passed on to tuition costs, donors, state funding---is not equal to K-12 funding methods. just 1chmoore.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 9:25am
chmoore1- with all due respect, I take umbrage to your "speak down" mindset.

I certainly comprehend the fact the money goes away from the state; I fully comprehend the reason Ohio did this, and I fully comprehend after running multi $Bb business units, no entity simply spends an outrageous fee, in this case, $55 Mm, to gain $40 Mm. Using your logic, although there clearly is no benefit to education, your argument is truly- we have to grab the money as if its some sort of a bargain.

Further, to state students leave the district because of Vail is not proven by facts, but supposition. However, I will  broaden your argument that more people (potential residents), and businesses avoid Middletown precisely for the point you made. And that is, not because of Vail, but because of the poor school district's rating. If you argue parents move their students out because of Vail, then you know residents flee (if they could- it only takes about 2-7 years to sell a Middletown home), and avoid moving in, on a broader issue, that being the red flag associated with the worst rating in Butler Cty and southeastern  Ohio.

Building this school will have exactly the opposite effect you state. Residents will leave, new residents (potential) will avoid, and the net sum impact is a net loss, with the exception of expense.

I encourage the reasoned voter to consider the effects of Middletown neglecting roads and infrastructure in the stack rank of priorities, in contrast to money on a building having no impact in a district making no progress to climb out of the box of continuous improvement.

If Middletown wasn't filled with OPER folks, this vote would be 65-35 in opposition.

I repeat, as I hate to do.....the building will do exactly the inverse of what is being stated by driving out existing residents, preventing others to move in, and saddling those paying the bill with crumbling streets and a school with a declining population. Most get this.
'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote itsamee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 9:38am
I dont think the problem is the declining student population and whether or not they need a bigger facility. I think the problem is the current facility is a mess. If you have never been in the building (Vail), I urge you to take a look at it, and also think of the current expense on the tax payers. The building is so old that it cannot be heated or cooled adequately. Some parts of it are dangerous (like the top floor ceiling tiles which have fallen at random), and the constant money-pit it has become in maintenance. 

Sure, there might be declining enrollment, but the students that remain should still be able to attend a school that is at least safe and comfortable. 

And before you all get high and mighty on the "well, when I went to school they didnt have heat" think, some of these students will not get heat at home or even food.  For some of these kids, it is the only place of shelter.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 9:50am
I am confused by your post.

Students don't get free meals? The building has been that neglected? How does Franklin do it in their building for the middle. junior school?

Perhaps Middletown should have given some buildings for shelter, and heat, based on what you have stated?

So the school district and levy passage is now based upon a need for a homeless shelter, and not education? Ironic many college educated students cannot find jobs today.

Obviously, you feel a school building for shelter is more important that roads and sewers. I disagree.  
'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote itsamee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 10:52am
I do not put the issues together. 

Middletown, the city, has to pass their own taxes in order to fix roads and sewers. That has little to do with a school trying to rebuild.  If you would like to pay a tax increase in order to fix infrastructure, tell the powers that be. I am sure they would be happy to put that on a ballot. 

For the school, due to the way they are funded, it has to go to a vote.  I would rather not pay for an additional school to be built. I would rather keep my taxes lower and pay less monthly, but, in reality, there is no other way to get a new school building than to pay for it. Vail is old and deteriorating quickly. While I voted "No" last time, I am probably going to vote "yes" this time because I have come to see a new building as more than just a school. For many, it is the only time they will have an adult speak positively into their lives, some go simply to get food or shelter, others to avoid bad-family lives. Others still to get an education and make something of themselves. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 11:13am
We obviously disagree with the nature of public education. You see it as a means of a meal and shelter. I see it as a mandate for excellence and performance measured against its peers, and teaching those to lead productive lives in society.

From what you describe, a child facing such problems would not perform well in school, or the majority in such a position, an exception, not the rule.

chmoore1's position is the school must be built because:

1) We have a deal on the table- get $40 Mm from state. Regardless of the consequence and benefit.

2) It facilitates the potential (hope), less students will leave.

Both the city and school district share the same primary goal- eliminating attrition (students), than building economic engine and accompanying revenue, and tax base.

As for your comment on infrastructure; it isn't taxes needed; rather, the city needs to put its dedicated allotment back on the city ordinance. You actually expect a building to have a priority than infrastructure to keep and bring in the tax base? It won't occur.    

To date, the reasons for voting for a levy?

1) Bargain shopping at Macy's, the gift horse of $40 Mm. Doesn't sell.

2) Ison- "city revitalization"- combine the gyms at MUM, middle school, and such as a destination. Doesn't sell, and rather elementary.

3) Keeping the fleeing students in check, at the cost of $95 Mm; unsound, and doesn't sell.

4) A shelter for the student in bad socio-economic conditions. That is not a school mission nor duty. If there is such a need, donate money to church, charities, et al.

To date after a few years of effort, just not advancing a compelling reason to vote YES.

As Larry Mulligan stated in his SOTHU or town address; "its time to change processes and costs before going to the tax-payer."  
"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 11:56am
While agreeing with acclaro, I just have to respond to this.....

itsamee:

"And before you all get high and mighty on the "well, when I went to school they didnt have heat" think, some of these students will not get heat at home or even food. For some of these kids, it is the only place of shelter"

I AM VOTING NO ON A SCHOOL LEVY TO BUILD/ADD ON TO THE SCHOOLS. I AM NOT VOTING ON A SOCIAL PROGRAM TO SHELTER AND FEED KIDS WHO WERE BROUGHT INTO THIS WORLD WHERE THE DAM PARENTS WON'T TAKE THE RESPONSIBILTY TO RAISE THEM.

IT IS NOT MY JOB TO PROVIDE MONEY TO HOME FEED, PROVIDE HOME HEAT NOR SHELTER KIDS OUTSIDE OF THE SCHOOL ENVIRONMENT. IT IS MY JOB TO PROVIDE MONEY TOWARD EDUCATING THE KIDS AS PREVIOUS GENERATIONS HAVE DONE.....AND, FOR THE LONGEST TIME, IT HASN'T COME CLOSE TO BEING WORTH THE MONEY EITHER. HARD APPROACH BUT YA GOTTA DRAW THE LINE IN THE SAND SOMEWHERE. AREN'T OUR BUDGETS STRAINED ENOUGH WITH THE EXCESSIVE SOCIAL "HELP ME/HELP ME" PROGRAMS THAT THE SOCIAL DO-GOODERS HAVE FORCED ON US THAT WE HAVE TO NOW, PAY FOR HOME BUDGETS FOR PEOPLE WHO CAN'T SEEM TO HANDLE THE STRUGGLES OF LIFE?

ACCLARO IS RIGHT. FAMILIES, ALONG WITH THEIR KIDS ARE MOVING OUT BECAUSE OF THE LOUSY, DUMB-DOWN ACADEMICS OFFERED BY THIS DISTRICT. THEY AREN'T MOVING OUT DUE TO THE CONDITION OF A SCHOOL LIKE VAIL. HELL, IF THEIR KID WAS GOING TO VAIL AND WAS LEARNING SOMETHING AND SHOWED EXCELLENCE IN THEIR EDUCATIONAL EXPERIENCE, THE PARENTS WOULDN'T GIVE A DAM WHERE THEY WERE LEARNING, BUT THEY WOULD BE HAPPY WITH THE RESULTS.

VAIL WAS JUST FINE IN THE 60'S AS MIDDLETOWN HIGH SCHOOL AS TO HEATING. DIDN'T HAVE THE ISSUE OF COOLING, EVEN DURING SUMMER SCHOOL, WHEN IT WAS AS HOT AS HELL IN THE CLASSROOM, BECAUSE PEOPLE LIVED WITH IT THEN. AS A STUDENT IN A HOT CLASSROOM, WITH FANS AS THE ONLY AIR MOVEMENT, YOU LEARNED TO TOLERATE IT AND MOVED ON. NO COTTLING. NO "THOSE POOR KIDS" COMMENTS.

ALL OF YOU SUPPORTERS FOR NEW SCHOOLS......TELL ME HOW THOSE ELEMENTARIES ARE DOING ON DRAMATIC IMPROVEMENTS IN ACADEMIC PROGRESS DUE TO THAT NEW LEARNING ENVIRONMENT YOU PROVIDED YEARS AGO. TELL ME HOW THE NEW ELEMENTARIES CONTRIBUTED TO A MAJOR IMPROVEMENT IN THE DISTRICT IMAGE AS TO ATTRACTING NEW RESIDENTS OR UPGRADING THE COMMUNITY.

NO? NO REAL CHANGE YOU SAY?

I THOUGHT SO....THEN WHY ARE YOU SO ENERGIZED ABOUT ROUND TWO OF NEW BUILDINGS WHEN ROUND ONE DIDN'T DO SQUAT? NOT LOGICAL. ONCE WAS BAD ENOUGH. WHY DO YOU WANT TO BE THEIR FOOL TWICE?.....IT DIDN'T DO ANY GOOD PEOPLE. IT WAS A WASTE OF MONEY AND YOUR TIME TO VOTE FOR IT......JUST AS IT WILL BE THIS TIME.    
I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 12:23pm
ITSAMEE:

"Middletown, the city, has to pass their own taxes in order to fix roads and sewers. That has little to do with a school trying to rebuild. If you would like to pay a tax increase in order to fix infrastructure, tell the powers that be. I am sure they would be happy to put that on a ballot"

SCHOOLS AND STREETS DON'T HAVE TO CONNECT AS TO COMPARISON. WHEN MONEY IS AT A PREMIUM, THE FEDS, THE STATE, THE CITY AND THE OLD HOME BUDGET MUST MAKE A LIST OF PRIORITIES TO PLACE MONIES ON THE MOST NEED.

THIS TOWN IS IN MORE NEED OF BETTER STREETS, SEWERS AND BRIDGES THAN IT IS IN NEED OF REPLACING AN "AGING SCHOOL STRUCTURE" AND ADDING ON TO A HIGH SCHOOL THAT HAS A DECLINING ENROLLMENT. SIMPLE CONCEPT ON WHERE THE MOST VALUE FOR THE TAXPAYER'S MONEY SHOULD BE DIRECTED.

AGAIN, THE STREETS AND INFRASTRUCTURE FINANCING WAS IN PLACE AT ONE TIME IN THE 80'S. THE MONEY WAS REMOVED FROM THE STREET FUNDS AT THE BALLOT WHEN THE VOTERS WERE TOLD THE CITY HAD AN EMERGENCY NEED FOR THE MONEY AND IT NEEDED TO BE REMOVED TO PLACE ELSEWHERE IN THE BUDGET. A NEW BALLOT WAS NEVER PRESENTED TO THE VOTER PLACING THE MONEY BACK INTO THE STREET FUND ONCE THE "EMERGENCY" WAS OVER. IN ESSENCE, BACK IN THE 80'S, THE DAM CITY LIED TO THE PEOPLE AS TO IT'S INTENTIONS NOT TO EVER REPLACE THE MONEY ONCE IT WAS APPROVED TO MOVE IT.

ITSAMEE:

"because I have come to see a new building as more than just a school. For many, it is the only time they will have an adult speak positively into their lives, some go simply to get food or shelter, others to avoid bad-family lives."

BUT WHY DOES IT HAVE TO BE A NEW BUILDING TO ACCOMPLISH THIS? CAN'T THE KID GET THE SOCIAL SERVICES YOU WANT TO SEE IN AN OLDER BUILDING? ISN'T THE IDEA THAT THEY GET THE SERVICE, NOT THE CONDITION OF THE FACILITY WHERE THEY GET IT? AGAIN, THERE ARE SOCIAL SERVICES OUTSIDE THE SCHOOL ENVIRONMENT THAT CAN PROVIDE WHAT YOU ARE ASKING FOR. LET THE SCHOOLS BE A PLACE TO "ATTEMPT TO LEARN" (IN MIDDLETOWN'S CASE)LEAVE THE SOCIAL WORK TO THE AGENCIES WHO HANDLE THAT.

SCHOOL FUNDING YOU SAY? FOR MANY YEARS WE HAVE BEEN PAYING FOR SCHOOLS THAT HAS BEEN DEEMED UNCONSTITUTIONAL. THE LAZY LEGISLATORS NEED TO GET UP OFF THEIR A-- AND ENFORCE THE COURT'S DECISION. FROM A LEGAL STANDPOINT, ISN'T GAINING MONEY THROUGH A LEVY ILLEGAL?...OR IS THAT INFO. WRONG? DUNNO
I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.
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Acclaro: you wrote: chmoore1's position is the school must be built because:

1) We have a deal on the table- get $40 Mm from state. Regardless of the consequence and benefit.

2) It facilitates the potential (hope), less students will leave. Please check my post. I did not say that my position was either of these. What you will find is that I corrected your statements. (1) the new building will NOT cost the taxpayers $95M, given that the state owes MCSD $40M; and (2)it is not my opinion that this will reverse the loss of students to open enrollment. I was responding to your statement about open enrollment. Once again, it's monotonous going over this time and again. On a side note, for both you and VV, and this is not for an argument--just your thoughts---what can we do with "Vail" to bring it up to date? As I see it, if we aren't going to build new (replacement just for MMS), then it must be remodeled. As you see it, how much? $20M? $30M? And, more importantly, where will the money come from? Will you support a completely separate levy to fund a "total renovation" similar to Hughes High School in Cincinnati? (I will look on-line and see what the cost for Hughes was, and post when I find it).   just 1chmoore.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chmoore1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 1:56pm
Hughes High School (Renovation)


(University Heights, 2515 Clifton Ave) — Construction completed on the renovation of Classical Building for final size of 290,873 square feet for 1,200 students. Students moved August 2008 into Professional Building and an annex at back of campus while renovation work was under way. The annex will be retained for future expansion. The renovated building opened August 2010.

Architect: Cole+Russell, Fanning/Howey, Moody Nolan

Building Construction Cost: $36,017,971

Withrow High School (Renovation)


(Hyde Park, 2520 Madison Rd) — Withrow University moved into renovated north wings over Spring Break 2007. Withrow International moved into renovated south wings in April 2006. Gymnasium, kitchen and cafeteria completed the renovation in Fall 2006. Demolition of vocational building, renovation of stadium and completion of site work finished in August 2007.

Architect: Cole+Russell and Fanning/Howey

Building Construction Cost: $38,539,594

Total Project Cost: $43,145,719 (includes such things as site preparation, demolition)

Source: http://www.cps-k12.org/about-cps/facilities-master-plan/fmp-schools

VV/Acclaro: for comparison purposes with Middletown Middle School total renovation.       just 1chmoore
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Woodward High School (New Construction/Existing Site)


(Bond Hill, 7005 Reading Rd) — Construction completed on a 261,870-square-foot school for 1,200 students with three wings designed for three career-technical programs. This is CPS’ first new high school building since 1962. Students moved into the new building as of the first day of the 2006-07 school year, on August 22, 2006. The dedication and ribbon-cutting ceremony was held on September 15, 2006.

Architect: Steed Hammond Paul + DH Architects

Building Construction Cost: $40,053,392

Total Project Cost: $47,765,066 (includes such things as site preparation, demolition)

Source: http://www.cps-k12.org/about-cps/facilities-master-plan/fmp-schools

For comparison w/new construction, Middletown Middle School.    

just 1chmoore

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Marcia Andrew View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marcia Andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 2:18pm
Viet Vet, in response to your question, will the levy campaign take down the signs until April 5, I cannot answer because i don't make decisions for the campaign committee.  But I do wonder, what purpose would it serve, now that the signs are up, to take them all down and put them back up 10 days later?  And who, or what, is harmed by the signs staying up for the interim 10 days?  I understand you, and others, are angry about the signs.  But you would have been angry even if they didn't go up the first time until April 5, and you will still be angry if they are put back up April 5. Mostly, because they are a reminder that some people disagree with your view and support a tax to build the new schools.  Some people are angry about the signs being placed on school property, but that is legal, so the anger about that is misplaced.  Some people are angry because they think the schools paid for the signs, but they did not -- people and businesses donated money to the bond campaign to pay for the signs and the flyers.  The city, whose ordinance it is, has not asked or demanded that the campaign take the signs down temporarily.  Other polical candidates have signs up that were placed even before the school bond campaign signs.  Last November, some people complained that there were very few signs, and they did not go up until about a week before the election, so the accusation was that the schools were trying to ambush voters by sneaking a bond issue on the ballot (even though the campaign had gone door to door with flyers then, too).  It seems the campaign is damned either way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote over the hill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 3:03pm
Ms Andrews: I don't think it's about which side you may be on for the levy what it IS about is the blatant, in your face, some rules apply to some people and not others. Let's inforce the rules FAIRLY and CONSISTANTLY across the board. I think you can understand "the law is the law"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 3:05pm
chmoore1:

"On a side note, for both you and VV, and this is not for an argument--just your thoughts---what can we do with "Vail" to bring it up to date? As I see it, if we aren't going to build new (replacement just for MMS), then it must be remodeled"

VAIL UPDATES? IF IT IS TOO COSTLY TO REDO THE ENTIRE HEATING AND COOLING SYSTEMS HOW ABOUT INSTALLING SOME LEIBERT STAND-ALONE HEATING/COOLING UNITS IN CLASSROOMS AND TOTALLY BYPASSING THE OLD SYSTEM? SOME ELECTRIC- SOME IN-ROOM DUCTWORK AND IT'S ACTIVATED. NO WALL TEAROUTS, NO MAJOR DAMAGE. EASY TO REPAIR IN EACH ROOM. NO WINDOW AIR CONDITIONERS TO DEAL WITH. SOMEONE MENTIONED INTERNAL CEILING TILE DAMAGE. ROOF WATER LEAK? HOW ABOUT A METAL ROOF FOR THE HIGH SCHOOL? INITIAL COST WOULD BE HIGH BUT THE METAL ROOF WOULD LAST A LONG TIME, RIGHT? IS REPLACING A METAL ROOF CHEAPER THAN BUILDING A WHOLE NEW SCHOOL......PROBABLY CONSIDERABLY CHEAPER, LEIBERTS INCLUDED. WHAT OTHER MAJOR ISSUES ARE WRONG AT VAIL? LIKE OLD ROOSEVELT ON CENTRAL, VAIL HAS RELATIVELY NEW WINDOWS DOESN'T IT? ROOSEVELTS RELATIVELY NEW WINDOWS WENT TO THE DUMP DIDN'T THEY? WHY WEREN'T THEY SALVAGED AND USED AS REPLACEMENTS AT VAIL. SAME KIND OF WINDOW, RIGHT? THAT TAKES CARE OF THE HEATING/COOLING, ROOF AND WINDOWS. WOOD FLOORS OK IN THE BUILDING? THEY WERE THE LAST TIME I WAS THERE YEARS AGO. WHAT'S LEFT?.....STILL CHEAPER THAN MILLIONS FOR A NEW BUILDING.

AS AN ALTERNATIVE, THE DISTRICT HAS A SCHOOL CALLED VERITY SITTING DOWN BY LEFFERSON PARK MOTHBALLED AND GOING TO WASTE. IT IS A MUCH NEWER SCHOOL THAN VAIL (AND IN A LITTLE BETTER AREA OF TOWN), IF AGE IS THE ISSUE HERE. IT ALSO HAS ACREAGE TO EXPAND THE BUILDING AND, PERHAPS ADD A SECOND FLOOR UNLESS THE STRUCTURE WON'T ACCEPT THE ADDED CONSTRUCTION OF COURSE. USE THIS SCHOOL FOR THE MIDDLE SCHOOL. WHY DOES THE SCHOOL BOARD AND THEIR FOLLOWERS HAVE TO HAVE IT ALL ON ONE "CAMPUS". HELL, YA GOT MILLER GYM AT THE OLD HIGH SCHOOL. BARNITZ STADIUM SITS DOWN BY ITSELF ON S. MAIN ST. BUILDINGS AND ACTIVITIES SPREAD ALL OVER THE PLACE.

ALL OF THE "SUPPORT THE SCHOOL LEVY", "LET'S MAKE EVERYTHING NEW AND WE'LL PROSPER" PEOPLE ALWAYS WANT TO USE VAIL AS THE WHIPPING POST FOR A BOND APPROVAL EXAMPLE. YET, ALL OF THOSE SAME SUPPORTERS ARE PERFECTLY WILLING TO LET A MUCH NEWER SCHOOL THAN VAIL SIT AND ROT FOR NO GOOD REASON. WHY? ANDREW AND COMPANY WANT TO TEAR DOWN MANCHESTER JR. HIGH BUILT IN 1968 OR SO. ISN'T THAT NEW ENOUGH TO KEEP? DAM, WITH THE CURRENT THINKING WITH SOME SCHOOL PEOPLE, IF A BUILDING IS OVER 40 YEARS OLD, IT NEEDS TO BE REPLACED. WHY? (IF THAT'S THE CASE, BY THIS CRITERIA, ALL OF THE HOMES IN MIDDLETOWN, OLDER THAN 40, NEED TO BE RAZED INCLUDING THE S. MAIN ST. AND HIGHLANDS HOMES TOO, RIGHT?- THOUGHT I'D THROW THAT IN) WHY IS A HOME IN A HISTORIC PART OF TOWN SOUGHT BY SOME PROMINENT PEOPLE IN THIS CITY AND THE NEIGHBORHOOD PROTECTED AT ALL COSTS, BUT A SCHOOL, THAT HAS HISTORIC VALUE, SOMETHING TO BE REVILED AND DEMOLISHED? EVERYTIME THE STATE OR SOME GRANT PROGRAM OFFERS MATCHING MONEY, SCHOOL AND CITY PEOPLE LOOK FOR SOMETHING TO KNOCK DOWN, JUST BECAUSE IT LOOKS LIKE A GOOD DEAL MONEY-WISE........BUT WHAT ABOUT LOGIC-WISE OR ACTUALLY DEMONSTRATING SOME CONSTRAINT ON SPENDING FOR A CHANGE. PRUDENT BEHAVIOR APPARENTLY IS NOT IN THE SCHOOL OR CITY HIERARCHY DOCTRINE.


SUPPORT ANY LEVY? NOPE. BASED ON PAST EXPENDITURES AND THE RESULTS OF THOSE VENTURES, THERE IS NO PROOF THAT ANY OF THE MONIES SPENT HAS HELPED IN ANY CAPACITY. THEREFORE, IT GOES IN THE FILE "RAMIFICATIONS OF DUMPING GOOD MONEY DOWN A RATHOLE"
I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.
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Paul Nagy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Nagy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 3:06pm
Ms. Andrew,
       I'm surprised at you. You're a lawyer. The reason that you  take the signs down is because it is illegal. If you have a problem with that you have revealed something I never would have believed. Those of us who have had signs taken down in previous elections for no other reason except who we were running against understand the abuses. Others have gotten away with it because justice could not be found because of political favoritism. Ms. Andrew take the  signs down and put them back up and build some respect for the law. If you don't know the law please read the ORC and the City Charter. But I know that you know the law better than most.
       Thank you.
        Paul Nagy
 
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over the hill View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote over the hill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 3:17pm
Well I guess the city will open themselves up for a law suit for favoritism for not enforcing the law consistently. You can understand that, Ms. Andrew. May be your firm may have the change to defend someone who gets caught in the middle of this. You would certainly have grounds for dismissal. Just a thought.
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VietVet View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 26 2014 at 3:37pm
Ms. Andrew:

"But I do wonder, what purpose would it serve, now that the signs are up, to take them all down and put them back up 10 days later?"

BECAUSE IT IS BREAKING THE LAW(ORDINANCE) ON THE BOOKS OF THE CITY OF MIDDLETOWN. I KNEW YOU WOULD COME UP WITH SOMETHING LIKE THIS. INCREDIBLE RESPONSE, ESPECIALLY FROM SOMEONE WHO WORKS IN THE LEGAL PROFESSION.

Ms. Andrew:

"And who, or what, is harmed by the signs staying up for the interim 10 days?"

I GUESS THE CANDIDATES THAT WERE TOLD TO TAKE THEIR SIGNS DOWN IN PRIOR ELECTIONS COULD HAVE ASKED THE SAME QUESTION. WHAT MAKES YOUR SCHOOL SIGNS SO SPECIAL THAT THEY SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO STAY UP WHEN OTHERS WERE MADE TO ABIDE BY THE RULES? HOW ABOUT THOSE EQUAL RIGHTS IN THE LEGAL PROFESSION MS. ANDREW? DO THEY NOT APPLY HERE?

Ms. Andrew:

"But you would have been angry even if they didn't go up the first time until April 5, and you will still be angry if they are put back up April 5. Mostly, because they are a reminder that some people disagree with your view and support a tax to build the new schools"

OK, USING COURTROOM DIALOGUE, YOU ARE OFFERING ASSUMPTIONS AND HERESAY COUNSELOR.

Ms. Andrew:

"The city, whose ordinance it is, has not asked or demanded that the campaign take the signs down temporarily."

C'MON, THE CITY HAS NEVER SPOKEN FOR THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE MS. ANDREW. YOU KNOW THIS. IT HAS BEEN QUITE OBVIOUS FOR YEARS. YOUR SCHOOL PEOPLE AND THE CITY WORK IN TANDEM (ROOM MATES NOW AT THE CITY BUILDING) AND HAVE YOUR OWN AGENDAS THAT DO NOT NECESSARILY LINK TO THE WANTS AND NEEDS OF THE MAJORITY LIVING IN THIS CITY. THAT IS REALITY MS. ANDREW.

Ms. Andrew:

"Other polical candidates have signs up that were placed even before the school bond campaign signs"

I'M NOT AWARE OF THIS.

AND THAT IS YOUR ARGUMENT COUNSELOR? BECAUSE OTHERS MAY HAVE PLACED SIGNS UP BEFORE THE TIME JUSTIFIES YOUR GROUP BREAKING THE LAW? YOU'RE ACTUALLY GOING TO STICK BY THAT STATEMENT? SERIOUSLY?

Ms. Andrew:

"Last November, some people complained that there were very few signs, and they did not go up until about a week before the election"

AW, THOSE WERE THE PRO LEVY PEOPLE WHO WERE MAD THAT YOU DIDN'T TRY TO SHOVE IT DOWN OUR THROATS AT AN EARLIER DATE. I WOULDN'T WORRY ABOUT THAT. THEY'RE ON YOUR SIDE.

Ms. Andrew:

"so the accusation was that the schools were trying to ambush voters by sneaking a bond issue on the ballot (even though the campaign had gone door to door with flyers then, too"

HEY THAT REMINDS ME, I WANT TO ASK FOR YOUR OPINION ON ONE OF YOUR VOLUNTEERS PLACING A PRO LEVY FLYER IN MY FRONT STORM DOOR WHEN THERE IS A BIG SIGN WITH BOLD LETTERS STATING "NO SOLICITING" (THAT MEANS POLITICAL CRAP TOO) EITHER THEY CAN'T READ, WHICH DOESN'T SURPRISE ME IF THEY ARE A MIDDLETOWN HIGH GRADUATE, OR, THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT "NO SOLICITING" MEANS, WHICH COULD ALSO BE A MIDDLETOWN HIGH GRADUATE.

AND FINALLY.....

Ms. ANdrew:

"It seems the campaign is damned either way"

WELL LET'S HOPE SO.

NOW, BACK TO THE ORIGINAL ISSUE.....WILL YOU HAVE YOUR LEVY PEOPLE COMPLY WITH THE SIGN ORDINANCE OF THE CITY OF MIDDLETOWN OR WILL YOUR GROUP BE CONTENT WITH BREAKING THE LAW?.....OR IS THE THINKING THAT THE GROUP IS ABOVE THE LAW?





   
I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.
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