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Go Buckeyes!
MUSA Immigrant Joined: May 15 2009 Status: Offline Points: 34 |
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Posted: May 17 2009 at 3:48am |
A Comparison of College/University Graduates in the U.S.A. to that of India and Communist China How does our country compare with India and Communist China insofar as the number and/or percentage of students graduating annually from colleges and universities with mathematics and science-related bachelors's and advanced degrees? We are slowly but surely losing ground in this area and the negative impact to our future economic health is alarming! |
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Go Buckeyes!
MUSA Immigrant Joined: May 15 2009 Status: Offline Points: 34 |
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FOUNDATIONS for SUCCESS
Whether you’re building a house, baking a cake or playing Tic Tac Toe, if you don’t start out well the percentages are against you for having a good outcome.
Don’t believe me? Try building a house without pouring a foundation that is square and level and then try to square the walls or put the roof on straight. Try baking a cake without greasing the pan first. Try to win at Tic Tac Toe without making an X in the middle square on the first turn. I’m not saying these things can’t be done, but the effort required is much greater than if you did things right the first time. In Middletown could it be that high school dropouts and graduation rates illustrate this point very well? The higher the truancy rates, the lower the grades. The lower the grades in Elementary School, the more likely the student is to not graduate. Not only do we have a child dropping out of school, but the society will likely be burdened by someone incapable of being a productive and self sustaining citizen. Worse yet, that child may become dependent on the state. Education is made even more difficult by the accelerating growth of knowledge itself. I heard a speaker say once knowledge doubles every five years. In other words, if you could take all the knowledge in the world and put that knowledge in a pile, then the size of the pile would double in five years. The pile would then double again in yet another five years. Yet society still has only 18 years to provide the first level of education and hopefully funding exists to provide another 4 years for some percentage of youth. Accordingly, increasing the number of hours children are scheduled to spend in school is vital. What’s more does it make sense that children must be there for those scheduled hours? Truancy is unacceptable. In addition, children must be given the skill and desire to continue their education beyond the first 18 years. Underachievement is nothing new. Junior High School seems to be the place where the lack of achievement in Grade School really seems to reveal itself. Junior High School is the place where physical growth can embolden students to challenge teachers and disrupt the classroom. If you’re struggling to keep up with what’s being taught, then disruption is one way of coping. If you can slow the pace of what’s being taught, then you may feel you are not falling behind so quickly. Some will doubtless attempt to blame teachers for their role in the underachievement of students. For my part, I have often said the responsibility of teachers is to teach, but as well the responsibility of students is to learn and we seem to hamper the ability of teachers to enforce discipline so teachers are able to teach. For example, isn’t suspending a child from school so they can sit in an empty house and watch TV while the parents are at work actually rewarding bad behavior? Isn’t that an incentive for continued bad behavior, rather than a disincentive? Where and how do we get in people’s faces, interrupt their pattern and turn them around? I heard Tony Robbins remark once how amazing it is to look at the approach of two people who have come from similar depressing circumstances. One uses their circumstances as an excuse for lack of achievement. The other uses the circumstances as the fuel to propel their achievement. How do we get more of the latter and less of the former? As Robbins said, what if we could find the key to make everyone use their circumstances as fuel, rather than an excuse? How do we make people understand the importance of education? At what point should the state be empowered to step in for its own survival and override ineffective parenting? How do we stop children having children? (One answer we know for sure--not with abstinence only sex education. I read somewhere recently that
If we do not lay a strong educational foundation with our children, then our collective house will be unable to stand the test of time, our cake will be inedible, and we will be unable to win the competitive games of the future. Surely we do not want such a future. |
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Pacman
Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jun 02 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2612 |
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So Smartman, you are telling me that the School System, can't have a dress code, Can't have a policy on how students are expected to act during school hrs., has no policy on students that continually disrupt a classroom, etc. and enforce it?
Paddling is still an option in many schools, mostly in the South from what I have seen. I have seen schools that have dress codes, no cell phones during school time, etc. and the rules are enforced. So what is up with Ohio?
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When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
Thomas Jefferson |
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Vivian Moon
MUSA Council Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187 |
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It's time for us to clean house and save our schools like they have in Washington D.C. http://www.middletownjournal.com/o/content/oh/story/opinions/editorial/2009/03/25/swg032509kristof.html |
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tomahawk35
MUSA Resident Joined: Nov 18 2008 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 223 |
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Schools should just try to educate all instead of trying to sort. |
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Smartman
MUSA Citizen Joined: Jun 14 2008 Status: Offline Points: 299 |
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Pacman, Back in our day we had punishment in school. It was called paddling! I got a time or 2 and I'm sure you did as well. Hands are tied for the schools. Can't paddle, cant suspend without an appeal, and the parents that need to be at conference dont show up! to that, there is nothing that the teachers or admin can do. Maybe it should become a state mandate that parents go to conferences. Problem students and parents meet with the schools administrators, teachers, and the psycologist. This way everyone is affected from the financally challenged to the well doers!
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Pacman
Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jun 02 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2612 |
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Agreed Smartman, but hasn't the education system also contributed to much of this problem? When I was in school discipline was a must and you respected your teachers even if you didn't learn that at home.
One or two students weren't allowed to be a constant distraction in class, after x number of problems you were out the door and into a classroom that dealt with those students. Today it is lets caudle them and try to understand them and on and on and on.
I live near the High School and see the problems on a regular basis believe me. Many students has zero respect for their elders, other peoples property etc. and calling the school might as well go out and spit into the wind. I agree it starts at home but the ones that lack discipline and initiative are just pushed on thru the system.
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When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
Thomas Jefferson |
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Smartman
MUSA Citizen Joined: Jun 14 2008 Status: Offline Points: 299 |
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There is a true economic difference, since I was theer, my son's (graduated 98 and 03) and now my daughter (class 0f 2011) That is true in any community so let me clear about that. We are victims of our city's section 8 policy, family problems, and the attitude from parents that what ever the students get is the teachers and schools responsibility. I learned the hard way as a kid growing up in this district. My parents expected me to succeed and there weree consequences if I didn't! A belt and confimed to my room. No cell phones or computers, or cable! Can you relate Vet?
Problem students have the idea that an education is owed them, rules dont matter and they are not to be held accountable. This is not the majority of students at MHS, but the few that bring down test scores and just dont care. I can show you many that do care. My daughter for example has a 4.25 gpa and asked for help for the OGT on her own. As did a large group of her friends.
I know it has been said that I am a staunch supporter and I will wear the tag proud. I dont always agree with Dr Price or decisions from downtown. AQll I know is my child is successful because of her own drive and her mother and fathers involvement in her life. Her friends are successful for the same reasons.
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Pacman
Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jun 02 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2612 |
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Smartman, please elaborate on what is different now in the say the way High School is now. My son is not there yet but will be in a few years.
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When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
Thomas Jefferson |
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Smartman
MUSA Citizen Joined: Jun 14 2008 Status: Offline Points: 299 |
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Apoligies to 80Vet. VietVet same comments to you! This is a different generation than the one your son grew up in years ago! Get out of your comfort zone and see for yourself. It is very easy to complain when you are not willing to really go and see what has changed. I can say with great confidence that the atmosphere today is quite different than the days when our kids were there.
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VietVet
MUSA Council Joined: May 15 2008 Status: Offline Points: 7008 |
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Smartman- Mr. 80Vet???? Good guess, but only a family connection. 80 Vet (te) is another member with negative vibes toward organizations that deserve the wrath of negativity when describing their ineptness. He shows more contempt toward authority figures that deserve no respect than I do. Unlike me, he says things that irritate some people. He wants to live in the past and thinks things were better then - I accept any old crap that comes down the road which is quite popular these days.
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Smartman
MUSA Citizen Joined: Jun 14 2008 Status: Offline Points: 299 |
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Mr. 80Vet, Your post 6th line down states had a son in the system years ago. MY POINT EXACTLY!!! Again I challenge you to step out of your comfort zone and take a test drive in the 2009 model. I can assure that it is quite different than when your son was in school.
Just remember this is the here and now, and we cannot relive yesteryear, no matter how badly we would like to. My oldest graduated in 1998 and the atmosphere at school is totally different than when he was a student.
A student does not have to come from a poor background to do badly in school. Home life and responsibilities taught at home contribute to success. Its called pride in yourself.
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Vivian Moon
MUSA Council Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187 |
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"If the kids are in a system where they can't learn what is expected of them in a traditional school year I doubt giving them more time in that same environment would change anything."
Arwendt Good point and well made and a sad truth for the students. |
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Vivian Moon
MUSA Council Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187 |
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I never said being Poor equals low IQ, by the way.
Pacman, No you didn't...but that IS what the school board continues to say the problem is "Low Income". I'm not saying that Section 8 isn't a problem BUT it is not the only problem effecting these scores and our schools. Thank goodness my children are grown!! |
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arwendt
MUSA Official Joined: May 17 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 588 |
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If the kids are in a system where they can't learn what is expected of them in a traditional school year I doubt giving them more time in that same environment would change anything.
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“Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power.” Benjamin Franklin - More at my Words of Freedom website.
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Pacman
Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jun 02 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2612 |
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Maybe we as a Nation need to re-examine our value system. This was supposedly written by a 15 year old student from Ohio:
NEW SCHOOL PRAYER : |
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When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
Thomas Jefferson |
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Pacman
Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jun 02 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2612 |
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"Having well educated parents is an advantage for any child." My point exactly.
I never said being Poor equals low IQ, by the way.
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When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
Thomas Jefferson |
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Vivian Moon
MUSA Council Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187 |
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Pacman,
Poor does not equal low IQ...that has been proven time and time again.
However it is more difficult for them to succeed..but they can.
Having well educated parents is an advantage for any child.
I just don't buy the message of the board...it just can't be all the fault of the children that the scores are so bad. |
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spiderjohn
Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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Wow dudes--are there REALLY two sides here?
Or just one side with varied opinions?
There is enough truth and common thinking between both of you imo.
Not 2 b butting in or speaking for either of you.
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VietVet
MUSA Council Joined: May 15 2008 Status: Offline Points: 7008 |
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Smartman-I'm not trying to speak for you. You are a big boy and can manage your own opinions. I am not trying to put a "spin" on what you say. You stated in your post " I am a supporter of the schools" (5th sentence of your post) My post above says that you are a staunch supporter of the schools. What spin would you be referring to? You verified my earlier post. Now, if we're done with the schoolyard talk, I'll congratulate you on your children's accomplishments. Agree- it is not all Dr. Prices fault, but he is the captain of the ship and therfore inherits all that goes with that title, the good and the bad. Don't need to have you hold my hand. Don't need to meet you there to see what is going on in the schools. Had a son in the school system years ago. I know the atmosphere. As for the "Got it Dude" comment- Are we still talking as if we were still in high school after all this time, Smartman? (or dude, whichever you prefer). Oh, by the way, you have no worries "going forward" as to me speaking for you. We're on opposing sides as to support of the schools. I don't wish to lower the bar any further.
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Smartman
MUSA Citizen Joined: Jun 14 2008 Status: Offline Points: 299 |
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Hey Vet, I resent the fact that you want to speak for me! I do not need you putting a spin on what I have said. I am perferctly able to speak for myself! Got it Dude! I am a supporter of the schools. My children have scored high on tests, 2 have graduated with honors, and my last is number one in her class at MHS. An NO I am not a teacher. Is there a problem in the schools, you bet your a#@. My daughters class has a number of parents that are involved in their childrens school life and those students are doing very well. On the other hand there are that many more parents that do not give a s%$#. Those students are failing!
It is not all Dr Prices fault as I have stated before. It is a combination of admin, teachers and parents. If parents don't care then most likely the students won't! And in those cases the teachers feel like they are fighting an uphill battle. It is not just here in M-Town. It is very difficult to teach economically challenged students.
I challenge you to go to MHS and walk the halls and watch the students. You can tell the ones that care and those that don't. If you want someone to hold your hand I will meet you there and point out the good students and the bad.
Going forward do no speak for me!
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Pacman
Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jun 02 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2612 |
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Vivian why do you think Miller Ridge, use to be Rosedale does and did so well?
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When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
Thomas Jefferson |
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Vivian Moon
MUSA Council Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187 |
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So now they want us to believe that all the dumbest kids in Ohio just happened to end up in the Middletown Schools...What a joke!...It's not the kids that are dumb it's the school system...If they want anymore of my money they better get busy an earn it.
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John Beagle
MUSA Official Joined: Apr 23 2007 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 1855 |
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Echo from Spider: Obviously Dr.Price sees the writing on the wall, and is trying to land a new position before the next round of scores/ratings become public. Anything less than noticeable improvement pretty much equals failure for the current school admin/system.
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spiderjohn
Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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How schools operated in the distant past has little to do with procedures today.
Remember--we had a much higher class of students when hospital, steel and paper industries headquartered within the city and their upper management lived here.
That exodus + the section 8 flood brought on by Council/Admin has seriously altered the face of our student population.
All that being said, we are still not getting the job done.
Obviously Dr.Price sees the writing on the wall, and is trying to land a new position before the next round of scores/ratings become public. Anything less than noticeable improvement pretty much equals failure for the current school admin/system.
MCSD will get no help from Council(iof you remember--their "meeting a couple of years ago resulted in a lot of back and forth finger-pointing). We can remove Ms.Andrews next fall IF someone different enters the race, and we can also replace the board pres(Rev.Tyus) if desired. Despite the Rev. never being elected to his position, I think that he has done a respectable job, in that he does not shirk the issues, does not make excuses, and has always been very open and straight-forward in conversation. He is hardly the problem.
Yes, Vet---those "teachers" on the MJ forum had better get their spin machine in order. The current board might well take action IF the new scores take a drop. Maybe MMF will recruit better school board candidates also, though their main focus seems to be keeping all avenues open for AK,SunCoke and the Atrium.
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