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Thursday, October 2, 2025 |
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Accountability of City employees |
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Paul Nagy ![]() MUSA Citizen ![]() Joined: Jan 11 2009 Status: Offline Points: 384 |
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All of the serious issues confronting our city are confronted by City Council and city Staff in a way to avoid accountability for performance. It is time for that to end and we must demand accountability, transparency and integrity. It is extremely lacking in our city government. It is costly to the taxpayers and hinders the city's progress.
The budget proposal is shallow and artificial. We are in severe economic times. The attempt to keep everything running as usual is not justified. The proposed cuts attempt to keep the bureaucracy safely in place without any sincere commitment and sacrifice. We need to get down to providng essential services. We need to have a plan for street repair on an onging basis. Not the promised campaign rhetoric that next year we are going to put $4 million dollars in street repair. If that happens then what? Why hasn't it been done in previous years when we had more money? We need to catch up the street repair and then make certain that each year an amount (as Sonny Hiil proposed ) is provided for street paving. We need a precise plan for our sewer/water system, for public service and not just a 3% raise for police, fire and city staff but something more substantial that makes our city safer.
As the city shrinks the buracracy must shrink. I don't want to see any body lose a job in this community during this recession. However, there are lots of other things that can be done. Hours can be cut, a days work can be cut from staff, wages can be cut, bonuses can be cut. We can cut out money to the Vistors and Conventions bureau, the Historical Society, etc, and a bunch of other special projects like this that have negative effect on our finances during recessionary times. We must stop funding the many niceties and get our funding down to essential service, save some money and CREATE A PLAN to use it to expand the city when the turn-around comes in two to three years. Now we need to be funding only public safety, infrastructure and economic development not anything else. We need to stop our government from getting further and further into our personal lives. We don't need the petty regulations for our plastic swimming pools, garbage cans, the width of our driveways, parking on our lawns, citations for paint on our gutters, etc. and ad nauseum. These are diversions while money is being filtered in to pet porojects for the benefit of certain people. These are awaste of staff time and money. Those responsible must be held accountable and find work elsewhere.
It is difficult for people on the public payroll to understand frugality and sacrifice. They live off of the taxpayers money and don't know how hard it is when your income is stopped. Their's is always there as long as they can keep taxing the citizens. Very little real frugality has been show, No sacrifice has been made. Those who say that they are making a sacrifice by not getting their raise or bonus are spoiled by the extravagance of living in our great country. Real sacrifice can be measured by the price our men and women are paying in Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan. Their families make the ultimate sacrifice.
Let us demand performance and accountability.
Paul Nagy
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wasteful ![]() MUSA Citizen ![]() Joined: Jul 27 2009 Status: Offline Points: 793 |
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Paul I agree with much of what you say. A major problem with the City is the Strangle hold that the Public Safety Unions have on the city, under current Ohio law. In goods times this is usually not an issue but in the current economic climate, the 3-4% guaranteed raise is a problem, the benefits which are not in line with other public and private entities are also an issue and need to be addressed. If the Public Safety unions continue with their demands in these tough economic times then more layoffs will be the order of the day. Eisner save it will you.....
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Paul Nagy ![]() MUSA Citizen ![]() Joined: Jan 11 2009 Status: Offline Points: 384 |
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Wasteful,
You are exactly right. The unions are setting themselves up for a big fall somewhere in the future not too far away. We have 8 unions. Their combined salaries, bennies and pensions will eventually bring the city to a major blockwall. They will either have to become
more reasonable or be cut or outsourced. I'm really very sorry that they are short-sighted to their own detriment and that of the city. Their demands are too much for a city our size. I wish they would reanalyze their situation and be more reasonable. The work (particularly the fire department) is out standing. I have not found them to be reasonable in their thinking and it will someday backfire and hurt us all. Its too bad. I believe I am their biggest supporter and have been for a number of years but I see where it is heading.
Thanks for your response.
Paul Nagy
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ashkicker ![]() MUSA Resident ![]() Joined: Jun 16 2009 Status: Offline Points: 86 |
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Mr. Nagy,
I am curious as to what actions the fire union is taking that is so detrimental. You must have some information that I am not privileged to. Please post some of information you have.
Thanks in advance for your reply,
ashkicker
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Pacman ![]() Prominent MUSA Citizen ![]() ![]() Joined: Jun 02 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2612 |
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wasteful ![]() MUSA Citizen ![]() Joined: Jul 27 2009 Status: Offline Points: 793 |
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Businesses are leaving town. Poverty is rising. Population declining 1000 vacant houses in Middletown waiting to be torn down. High per capita Section 8 and Public Housing. Poor performing schools. Crime rising. Poor Infrastructure. Etc., Etc., Etc.
This all translates into lower tax revenues which pays the salaries of the city workers. If this decline continues and is not reversed, then sooner or later and I think it will be sooner Public Safety is going to be impacted in the form of layoffs. As Pacman said it is Economic 101.
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ashkicker ![]() MUSA Resident ![]() Joined: Jun 16 2009 Status: Offline Points: 86 |
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Pacman,
That you for the informative reply. Have you talked to the City Manager or the Union President lately? Take some time and call them and ask about relations between the two. I'm sure most of the information posted here is correct, it is not 100% correct.
Ashkicker
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Pacman ![]() Prominent MUSA Citizen ![]() ![]() Joined: Jun 02 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2612 |
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Ashkicker are you saying the relationship is less than amicable? That wouldn't surprise me in the least......if it was. But you have to look at this economically and not whether you agree with the City Admin. You have to look at do I take a pay freeze or cut now to preserve all of the Fire fighters jobs and benefits or do we bang heads with the city until it is to late and layoffs start. Believe me I own my own business and have taken a huge pay cut to survive. My wife has taken an 8% pay cut to preserve her job and that of other employees. This is not something that many of us haven't already experienced ourselves.
The city as I see it is not on its way to growing it Tax revenues anytime soon significantly. They spend a significant amount of time, money and man hours dealing with HUD issues which doesn't lend itself to increased tax revenue. It lends itself to bringing in more low income housing, lower tax paying citizens, etc. The city needs to bring back the socio-economic balance so that we can afford Public Safety, so we can increase Public Safety employees, so that we can have a new Fire Station to replace some of the less than desirable ones, so that we can have more Police Officers, better equipment and training, etc., etc., etc.
What is going to happen if the current Public Safety tax levy fails upon renewal, in the current condition the city is in and the financial condition of its citizens due to the economy there is a good chance it would.
You can't continue to raise taxes on the limited number of residents you have that pay the bulk of the taxes. You need to bring in new residents, with new jobs to support the city. Currently I don't see that happening.
Personally I think Middletown's population is declining possibly by as much as 7-10% with the coming 2010 census. The 2007 census already estimates Middletown's population at about 48000, that would be a significant drop.
Good Luck
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ashkicker ![]() MUSA Resident ![]() Joined: Jun 16 2009 Status: Offline Points: 86 |
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Pacman,
Less than amicable? Yes. When you call the Union President, ask him if the City Manager requested a pay freeze from the Union. Then ask him what he did in response. I believe the Union President was willing to work with the City to hold down costs and was blown off by the City Manager.
Did you find it odd that Public Safety seemed to be an afterthought at the budget meeting? More than that, why were neither the Fire Chief nor the Police Chief not present? Were they asked not to be there? Just wondering.
Ashkicker
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Pacman ![]() Prominent MUSA Citizen ![]() ![]() Joined: Jun 02 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2612 |
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ashkicker what is the image that the average citizen sees when they watched the Council meeting about the budget and cuts. They saw an Admin that proposed cutting jobs from Depts. other than Public Safety. There was very little talk of Public Safety, I believe the Police had a small cut and Fire a larger cut, but no personnel were laid off. The Public does not know what goes on behind the closed doors at City Hall and I venture if anyone calls and inquires of the City they will paint a rosey picture.
Now this is not to say I don't think that City employees can't do more. Personally I think City employees should be paying more of their Health Care Premium.
Question for you why did your Union Endorse Marconi and Armbruster? Just curious......most of the Public Safety employees can't even vote in the City election from what Council says.
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Mike_Presta ![]() MUSA Council ![]() ![]() Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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Ashkicker:
As I recall from past posts, you are a firefighter and seemed to be a straight shooter and respected by most (if not all) of the regulars on this forum.
That being said, it appears that you already know the answers that we will get (or at least that we should get) if and when we were ever able to contact city officials at a time when they were "set up to answer questions." In my opinion, it would be deeply appreciated by all if you would simply share this information with us, rather than have us go through the machinations (and endure the extended time period that would probably elapse) if we had to gleen this info on our own.
I am rather certain that if you deal with us in a straightforward manner, you will receive the same in return. If you are a regular reader here, you might have noticed that for the very most part, that we treat others the way we are treated.
Thank you in advance if you continue to favor us with your valued input.
Most of us here seek the truth, and what is best for the city. We don't always agree (even among ourselves) but we are always as willing to listen to the opinions of others as they are to listen to ours.
Regards, Mike P.
PS: Sometimes we are even good for a laugh or two, and even laugh at ourselves!!!
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Hermes ![]() Prominent MUSA Citizen ![]() ![]() Joined: May 19 2009 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 1637 |
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Perhaps,just maybe the reason the city has no money is because everything is being dumped into the east side,aka Renaissance district ? Some of you here know and understand the workings of the city better than I, so do they have the ability to empty funds and spend it on the east side project ?
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Vivian Moon ![]() MUSA Council ![]() Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187 |
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Hermes What they are working on now is to dump HUD-CDBG funds on "Renaissance West" (mall area). They are working on it as we speak and Mr. Adkins will again use the 54% rule to make this happen if they get the $19 million in funding
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Bobbie ![]() MUSA Citizen ![]() Joined: Jun 05 2009 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 288 |
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I do know for a fact that they have asked concessions of the unions - such as days off without pay - But have they asked this of the non union individuals as well. I know in other cities this is happening - but is it in Middletown, does anyone know?
Also keep in mind that the empty houses and jobless rate in Middletown causes more crime. Empty houses result in arson and theft rises with a lack of income - we need to be careful on what we cut when it comes to our safety.
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taxed2death ![]() MUSA Immigrant ![]() ![]() Joined: Oct 26 2009 Location: middletown Status: Offline Points: 34 |
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moon are you saying they are trurning the mall into hud section 8 housing? or did i miss understand your post?
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I hope it gets better soon!
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lrisner ![]() MUSA Citizen ![]() ![]() Joined: May 26 2009 Status: Offline Points: 330 |
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Perfectly reasonable way of expressing a view on a subject. I disagree with your Logic, but that is fine. Most of my rebuts have been more to the inciting tone of the comments than the Subject matter itself. Please keep up the civility so that we might have a worthwhile discussion. |
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Pacman ![]() Prominent MUSA Citizen ![]() ![]() Joined: Jun 02 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2612 |
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Lrisner you can disagree all you want. The fact of the matter is revenues are declining from a declining population. A population that is becoming less affluent or middle class and more poverty stricken.
It is a simple fact that if revenues continue to decline as I believe they will for the foreseeable future that employees will have to make sacrifices if they wish to avoid layoffs or even keep their own jobs. This is especially true of the Unionized employees.
Now logically you can say, hey lets make a sacrifice now and increase our share of the premium of Health Care costs as an example or you can elect to do nothing until the cities hand is forced and layoffs occur.
It is coming sooner or later and some on council see it, but union devotees such as yourself would just as soon push the envelope to the nth degree and force the issue. You see it matters little to me which way the union goes. Either way they lose something, one way they lose a little, one way they lose a lot. Either way the money out of my pocket is the same.
I seriously doubt Middletown will be voting for any increase in taxes anytime soon. I would not be surprised to see the Public Safety Levy fail if there are not significant improvement in Middletown before it comes up for vote again.
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lrisner ![]() MUSA Citizen ![]() ![]() Joined: May 26 2009 Status: Offline Points: 330 |
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They have a contract! If revenues were to increase unexpectedly from the time the contract was negotiated, would you be in favor of giving the employees MORE than the Contract required? Of course you would not! That is why we have Contracts.
You spoke earlier of you and your wife taking less because of economic conditions, are you saying you will not take MORE when Economic conditions improve? Of course you will. It is unreasonable to expect contract Employees to take cuts in bad times unless you are willing to let them have more (over and above contract requirements) in good times. The problem with your Logic is you want them to share the suffering in bad times, but only take contract requirements in good times, all the while you expect the benefits of the good times yourself. Think about it for a minute before you allow yourself to "kneejerk" about it. What's the point of a contract otherwise? |
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tootie ![]() MUSA Immigrant ![]() Joined: Sep 16 2009 Status: Offline Points: 32 |
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This is only my opinion so if goes against your position on this matter, oh well. Your statement that it is unreasonable to expect contract employees to take cuts in bad times unless they get more (or over and above contract requirements) in good times just reinforces my belief that the unions should be disbanded. How do you think an employee feels who has devoted say 15 years to a company gets laid off but someone who has only been there 4 years stays because they are "union". And why should they get over and above their contract if the economy got better? That comment just baffles me. Just because they have a "contract" that does not entitle them to more than their contract requirements. If they are union, usually they are getting more than a non union worker anyway. And yes most people cut back when times are bad and pick back up as the economy improves. That is only common sense and human nature unless you have a money tree in your back yard or are in the upper income bracket. The problem with your LOGIC is that it appears you think union employees are in the same category as the Wall Street and Banking executives who take exorbitant salaries and bonuses with no regards to the companies stabilty. Once again this is my opinion just as your post is yours.
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Pacman ![]() Prominent MUSA Citizen ![]() ![]() Joined: Jun 02 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2612 |
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Lrisner a contract is of little value when the funds are not there to follow thru. Like I said it matters little to me what the Unions do, when the time comes for layoffs and if the Unions refuse to make any concessions, then layoffs it will be. Your logic is one of the major downfalls of unionized labor and the reason when times get tough so many union jobs are lost.
If the city goes bankrupt tomorrow and the state steps in you think there won't be layoffs of union employees.....think again. You just keep maintaining they have a contract.
As far as my family goes I have taken a 50% pay cut and my wife an 8% pay cut. Wifes company started layoffs last week. Do I expect my wifes income to come back probably not any time soon. As far as mine goes I have more control over that and it will return as I am self employed. Maybe I should write a contract between myself and my company and bankrupt my company trying to maintain my old salary during these tough times. Of course I think using my logic I will fair better in the long run.
I love the Union mentality though don't give up $25.00 a week but loose your job in the end....makes perfect sense but only to Union employees fortunately.
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rngrmed ![]() MUSA Citizen ![]() Joined: May 06 2009 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 309 |
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I think Irisner makes some good points. We do expect city employees to take a cut when things go bad, but we are in no hurry to give them raises when things are good. I'm sure if the economy was booming right now, maybe the unions would call for a contract RENEGOTIATION. Yes the unions have contracts that should be honored, but if they ALL want to stay employed, maybe they should consider a renegotiation. Who knows, maybe the city can buy some hanging pots and bring in some more Dollar General Stores
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Pacman ![]() Prominent MUSA Citizen ![]() ![]() Joined: Jun 02 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2612 |
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rngrmed, tell us the last year that Public Safety, which is basically what we are talking about here, did not get a raise of 2-4% per year? Tell us the last year they didn't have excellent Health Benefits and other benefits?
rngr, if the city was thriving and revenues were on the rise or even maintaining past levels no one would question the raies or talking about concessions. The same goes for matters such as Section 8 if we had 500-600 vouchers to start with, there would be no uproar about Section 8. If poverty was at a leverl of 8-10% I doubt it would be an issue either. If the schools were performing up to par, you get the picture. But all of the above are not operating in an acceptable manner to many. So do you just ignore the issues as many in Middletown tend to want to do for some reason or do you try to make adjustments to improve or in Middletown's case just survive? Personally I say you make changes and push for a better day when raises are not an issue, Section 8 is not an issue, Schools are perfoming better and not an issue etc., others only see the what is in it for me now and that is the way it is.
Maybe the city should start taxing retirement benefits of its citizens, excluding Social Security, to raise its revenues and maintain it's Unionized employees standard of living.
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Mike_Presta ![]() MUSA Council ![]() ![]() Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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Pac,
I'm starting to worry about you!! It seems like more and more often, I see you awake and on here in the wee hours!!
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Pacman ![]() Prominent MUSA Citizen ![]() ![]() Joined: Jun 02 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2612 |
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Interesting read on some of these old Conciliations awards and contracts of city employees:
Conciliation Awards throughout the state:
Middletown Fire Dept. facebook.com
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Pacman ![]() Prominent MUSA Citizen ![]() ![]() Joined: Jun 02 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2612 |
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Mike must be Old Age setting in.
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