Issue 5-Collective Bargaining

TonyB- all I know is that on the evening news, every night for a period of time, the discussion always focused on the bailouts for GM, the banks, AIG and other companies that were run into the ground. Don't agree using taxpayer money, without taxpayer permission, to bail already failed enterprises out of trouble. Some of these shops were union and with the bailout, continued to excessive wages, bennies and retirement programs. We're back to were we were with some of these companies before the trouble began. What good did it do to help the very same people who failed miserably before? And, why should some companies be kept afloat with taxpayer money help while others go under and the very same people who's taxes went to save some, ended up losing their jobs anyway? Look, I'm not anti- Dem/Obama. I'm not pro-Republican/Boehner and their agenda. I'm anti- all Washington, Columbus, Middletown government people. All levels have really overspent in relation to revenues in and have played their special interest game so long, it has caught up with them. All levels have really screwed this country up. The PEOPLE are the only ones left with level heads. The problem has always been who the people select to run the show for them. They are special agenda idiots who sell the people out each and everyday. There are no politicians who think like the people do. JMO

Now, I am not trying to start an argument. I am just presenting a few facts, and then offering a different point of view. (The compensation and political donation figures are from the Center for Public Integrity website. You can find them here: http://www.publicintegrity.org/articles/entry/2964/ )

• The Nation Education Association (NEA), representing most of the nation’s teachers, has 31 headquarters officers and employees who earn over $200,000. The president, Dennis Van Roekel, received $397,721 in salary and benefits. Of the $3.7 million NEA spent on political activities in the last election cycle, 98 percent went to Democratic candidates.
• The American Federation of Teachers (AFT) is the smaller of the two teacher unions and also represents school support staff, higher education faculty and staff, health care professionals and state and municipal employees. At AFT’s headquarters in Washington, nine officers and employees earn more than $200,000 a year. Randi Weingarten, who was elected president in 2008, received $428,284 in salary and benefits. Of the $2.4 million donated to political candidates in the past two years, the union gave all but $10,000 to Democrats.
• The Service Employees International Union (SEIU), whose membership has increased in recent years, has been organizing hospital, home care and nursing home workers, along with local and state government employees, janitors and security officers. The union has nine headquarters officers and employees who earn over $200,000. The former president, Andy Stern, was paid $306,388 in salary and benefits from the union in 2009. In his final year, Stern got a 5 percent pay boost. Over the past two years, SEIU gave almost $2 million to Democratic candidates and $8,500 to Republicans.
• The American Federation of State, County & Municipal Employees (AFSCME), one of the fastest growing unions in the United States, was founded in Wisconsin almost 80 years ago. At union headquarters in Washington, 10 officers and employees receive more than $200,000 a year. Gerald McEntee, who was first elected union president in 1981, was paid $479,328 in salary and benefits in 2009. Over the past two years, AFSCME has donated $2.3 million to Democratic candidates and $13,000 to Republicans.

Now, if you do the math, all of the above easily adds up to over $25 million, and these aren’t all of the public employee unions by a long shot. Next consider that some of the people may not want to belong to a union, but they have no choice--they are forced to join (or, in some states, at least to pay the dues). And yes, I am familiar with the argument that they enjoy the benefits of belonging to the union. But look how many of these union big shots earn as much, or more, than the evil, rich bankers and corporate officers!!! Talk about taxing the rich??? You folks are PAYING the rich, and doing so with money that first came from the TAXPAYERS!!!

And another thing: out of the millions of your union brothers and sisters who are members of these unions, don’t you think that there is a substantial number who are NOT of the Democratic Party persuasion??? They may be Libertarian, Green Party, Constitution Party, Communist Party, Independents, or even <gasp> Republicans, and yet neither they, nor YOU have any control over where (or how much of) these MILLIONS of dollars in political donations go. Yet the money goes to nearly ALL Democrats!!! And again, these political contribution first had to be taken from the TAXPAYERS to be passed through you on the way to the wealthy union officials!!!

I’m not saying whether this is right or wrong, I am just saying that this is DIFFERENT than the private sector. If I don’t like Walmart’s social agenda, I can shop at Target. If I don’t like General Motors’ political leanings, I can buy a Ford, etc. But neither you nor I nor any other citizen has a choice whether or not to pay taxes, so somehow my tax money ends up in Andy Stern's pocket and helping to elect Barack Obama (neither of whom are even my Facebook "friends", let alone listed as dependents on my IRS-1040)!!!

"Step increases are given on a employee's anniversary date. Contractural raises are given however the CBA is structured". So we can assume that you normally receive two increases per year? One increase per year in the private sector, if you're lucky nowadays. Has been for the 40+ years I have been working.

"In the private sector, is there a top pay?" Yes. In my experiences on a floor factory job and as a research tech., each level has a pay range. That pay range may overlap the next highest pay range. A highly rated "T-1" may be making more than a low rated "T-2" for example. If you do not get a promotion and are highly rated in your current level, you may receive a small increase in pay as you reach the "topped out level" in your pay grade. On the factory floor, the jobs have a range of pay, depending on the skill level required and the responsibility of that job. A machine operator is going to make more than a person packing parts on a prod. line. Takes more skill to run a machine than to put pieces in a box and seal it. If there is no opening on the floor for a higher paying position to apply for, you stay where you're at and receive small increases if you are near the top of your pay range. You must wait until a position opens up to move higher. Sometimes, that never happens if there is little turnover in the department.

"Do most employees reach that top pay?"- At Crane Plastics, a line operator (lowest operator position on the floor) spends some time in the position running simple jobs until his lead man thinks he is ready to test for "A" operator. He tests and if he passes, moves to starting range A operator and begins to run harder profile jobs. This happens for Senior Operators also. Each position has several steps to warrant a merit raise. If you produce, have few defects and little scrap on a continual basis, it helps in the promotion process. You "top out" at the highest level of Senior Operator after 15+ years if you are proficient and pass all tests in a minimal amount of time. Lead man is the next level- IF a lead man position is available. They just don't create a lead man position just because a Senior Operator is topped out. If not available,then you stay a topped out Senior Operator with small increases up to a certain point- then nothing more. (or you transfer out of the department if something opens up or you leave the company for a better paying job and opportunity somewhere else.

"My point is at some time the younger employee is going to get larger or more frequent raises to reach the same pay as the older employee"- Nope. Everyone gets a raise once a year at performance appraisal time (or if they pass the tests to the next level, but not two raises in a year) Based on merit/accomplishments/value to the company. Younger employee doesn't get more frequent raises over the older employee. Older employee may be the "A" operator and is slower and not as skilled at learning as the younger employee. The younger employee will go right past him. Everyone learns and progresses at a different rate. The younger employee may have demonstrated "A" operator skills long before the older one did and will make Senior Operator faster if he can demonstrate the skills needed better.

"My point is at some time the younger employee is going to get larger or more frequent raises to reach the same pay as the older employee".- not if he can't demonstrate the skill levels to move up the ladder, he won't. Age has nothing to do with it. Demonstrating skills to achieve the next level does. How you perform matters- age does not when it comes to raises. Everyone gets the same raise/same frequency within the skill level attained whether you're 20 or 60.


"I currently pay 10% into my pension and it has been discussed to raise that to 12.5%"- yes...we can select 0-5-10 or 15% out of our paycheck to go to retirement.


"Family plan medical is around $100/month, I think"- that's cheap- my paycheck sees a hit of $300 per month for medical and $160 per month for dental coverage.(that's in addition to what the company pays) The medical is excellent with Anthem and I need it for my wife's many major medical issues. Otherwise, we would be bankrupt. The dental coverage sucks with a max. coverage cost of only $1000 per year. Hell, a root canal eats up $800 of that. Nothing left for fillings, cleanings, etc. Anything over a $1000, I pay for out of pocket, after forking out $160 a month to boot. Crappy coverage.

"I have agreed to pay up to $112.58/month into the insurance plan."- company supplies my base salary as insurance. I purchased supplemental coverage at 4 times my base salary and have the premium taken out of the paycheck every two weeks.

"Talk to me again when you go to work and a mother puts her dead baby in your arms and expects you to do miracles"- yes, you have the human element in your job. My job is the cold, hard fact of creating new ideas through research that will enhance the possibility of the company making more money. No human emotions involved other than to daily tiffs with the scientists and engineers of course.


"I have listened to people complain that I donate money to get candidates elected. Those elected officials then give me whatever I what when contract talks come around. What about the companies that donate huge sums of money to get the candidates elected so they will pass management friendly laws passed to line their pockets"- ok, what's your point? People in the private sector AND public sectors make political donations all the time to try and get the person who they may benefit from elected. Those elected officials who "give me whatever I want when contract talks come around" would be our city council who is suppose to be representing the taxpayer who is providing the funding to "give you whatever you want". I would hope (but know otherwise) that they would not "give away the store" at negotiation time. If they are,they are screwing the general public who is supplying the money they are giving away and are catering (caving in) to the union demands while ignoring the majority of the tsxpayers. Salary and bennie costs are 75% of the city's budget. Gotta lower that cost to get the budget in line with the poor revenues in this city. The city just ain't bringin' in as much as they are spending.

The bailout money?....I think most of us know that was wrong to do. It was done by Obama and the Dems to support the unions for the purpose of gaining more votes at election time. I noticed that we taxpayers weren't asked if we wanted the feds to use our money for these bailouts. They probably wouldn't have liked the response. Wanna know the kicker....I voted for Obama and am a registered Dem. Don't agree with alot of his thinking nor where we're headed. Don't care for Repub Boehner nor Mitch McConnell either. More and Independent now than either major party supporter.

TonyB, you must have a son or daughter working in the department? FACT- 30% of the average public workr makes 30% more than private sector. FACT: the average public secctor makes >50% in benefits such as insurance, etc., than public. THAT's WHY they do their work and enter the field. Nice gig if you can get it.

So stewieboy.....if true that the step increases are in addition to the regular negotiated raises, in essence, they are getting two raises per year. Wonder what the percentage of each is? The last 5 to 10 years, in the private sector, the raises have been anywhere from 0% to as much as 3% on average from my experiences. If they are doing better than this, it is another advantage that the union folks have been enjoying that the private sector has not. What are your thoughts on this subject ashkicker? In addition to the 9% union folks pay toward their benefits (to around 15-22% for private sector) and this "step increase" in addition to the regular raise per year, I'd say you folks are doing just a tad bit better than we non-union private sector people. I'm sure you can understand the reluctance to support your point of view from our vantagepoint.(assuming all this is accurate of course)

The fire fighter starting salary is higher than a typical person with a Bachelor or Masters degree.  I know because I have a Masters and didn't make that much after paying for 6 years of college.

Acclaro,

Vietvet,

acclaro--how long have I been saying this on this forum?

Ok ashkicker- here goes the response....

"Would it be possible for an employee to be promoted "when a position opens up and there is still a need to fill that position" and receive less pay than the employee who chooses not to move up but continues to earn merit pay?"- an actual example that happened for you....my grandfather at Armco Steel years ago.... he was a 4 high temper mill roller in West Processing. He was Zone 24 pay-highest you could go.(He was there 46 years so he worked his way up the ladder)- he was offered a Foreman position which would have been a promotion, but he told them no. He could make more money than the foreman with bonuses and overtime even though the Foreman position was higher on the totem pole and would have been a promotion to lowest level management.

"Do you know the salary ranges of any of the career paths you have cite, medical, AK or housekeepers? I don't but would be interested to find out. More than once I have responded to AK and watched AK workers running from the building the public expects me to run into. I am not knocking the AK workers for protecting themselves, I am glad to see everybody out of harms way."...Guessing here- AK range for floor worker-25 thou to 35 thou (non-union)-(union) 35 thou to 60 thou base perhaps-medical...LPN- maybe 25 thou to 40 thou-RN....35 thou to 60 thou perhaps Just guessing here. Not my career field. Might be way off. Housekeepers- low wages at hotels I would suspect.

"I've paid the $50/hour plumbers bill, the $75/hour furnace repair bill, paid the scalpers price for tickets to a Reds game (with players making millions) and even spent my $7 for a movie ticket (with actors making millions). While you may not have a problem shelling out money for other professional that do their jobs, you complain that police and fire jobs should pay lower wages (including benefits).".....I have paid them for these services too. Not all of this cost goes in their pocket. They have business expenses to cover for a portion of that hourly charge-truck upkeep/insurance, parts to install, paying employees,business taxes, building rent if not owned, tool costs, etc. What does that leave them per hour that is really theirs as take home pay? Have not been to a movie in years and went to my first Reds game in 30 years last year. Another party paid for the whole event- too expensive for my wallet even through a scalper.


"Do you have the same enthusiasm when it comes to the top of the food chain? I seen where Kaisch is the 12th highest paid governor. Shouldn't he be around 25-26? His political appointees will be making more money than their predecessors (I believe one post is a $44,000 increase). How do Ohio legislators get paid. Is their raise automatic? If merit pay is important, they shouldn't get a raise until the budget is balanced. Doing away with collective bargaining alone is not going to balance the budget."....Nope- don't like the high rollers either. Think most of them are overpriced and get in the way in the workplace most of the time. Think most managers are corporate drones, have no common sense, are a pain in the a-- and have no people skills. If the state legislators work like the feds, they vote themselves a raise and no one is there to tell them they can't. Kasich can pretty well do what he dam pleases as to passing out the money to his boys and girls in his area. Voters forget that every time at the polls and re-elect the clowns time and time again. Assinine thinking IMO, but then again, none of us common voting people have a real choice that would be decent, do we? That's why we get stuck with the same 'ole same 'ole. As the Who said....meet the new boss, same as the old boss on the "Won't Be Fooled Again" song- Who's Next album.

" $45-55K. Base salary is at the top end of your range presently. I guess my benefits put me out of your acceptable pay range."- wasn't considering the cost of the bennies package. Knew that would add to the overall picture. Just made the guess at an acceptable salary based on wages only. Again, you asked the question and I responded. If 55 thou is the base salary, and the pay could go up to what????? 65 thou- then IMO- yes, too high. Remember- you asked me to take a shot at a fair salary. Obviously, it was not what you wanted to hear but as I judge what you do, in comparison to other jobs that may or may not be close to your vocation, I would place the value where I did. If you are at 55 thou, then you have exceeded research pay for techs who have been working for large companies for years already. Very few techs will reach that level of pay be it large corporation or small company, no matter how long they work before retirement.

Vet,  I agree wholeheartedly that best pay should be for best workers. That is the American way. It gives incentive to be better in your profession.

TonyB...thanks for the chart and info. on the wealthy. Surprised to find the ten most wealthy in Congress were mostly Dems. Wonder if Kerry's wealth is his or is his wealthy wife's (Heinz ketchup people, aren't they?) income included? The .01% down to the 1% range is staggering. Still not bad at $164,000+ for the 1-10% group. I'd take that and still feel poor compared to the 1 percenters. Looks like Wall Street and the CEO's are the big winners with the rest of us taking a bath on properties and income. Mercy this is so skewed and makes one angry to look at. No wonder there are alot of people who hate the rich. Where's Robin Hood when you need him? Thought the Bush tax cuts were to help the rich free up money to create more jobs for us lowly peons and to stimulate the economy. Also doesn't look like that is happening does it? Also looks like the people, who can afford to be taxed the least are giving the most and the corporations, who certainly can afford the taxes more than the people, are giving the least. This is bass acwards. Looks like we are taking it on the chin in payroll taxes too as they have ramped up over the years. This is opposite what it should be too. Need to put more money in people's bring home pay to create more spending and help with that higher standard of living you are talking about. Stats do make you want to hate the rich, don't they?

One more comment about your post.....I'd like to amend one of your statements if I may......you mentioned-

"Quite frankly; teachers, police and firefighters should be among the best paid workers anywhere!!!"...insert high performing before the word teachers in this statement. I don't believe we should offer the best pay to any of these categories unless they are top notch. For example, based on the performance of the Middletown school district, I wouldn't necessarily be inclined to offer all teachers in this district the "best pay". Some haven't earned it. And just because a police officer or firefighter "places his/her life on the line every working day" doesn't necessarily automatically qualify them for "best pay" either IMO. They still must perform for that distinction. Military personnel, like the police and firefighters, "place their lives on the line (especially in a war zone)everyday" and you see what kind of pay they draw (even when you include combat and hazardous duty pay). JMO

Let's switch this situation around just for the fun of it. Let's say that the private sector salaries were paid out of union dues that were collected from the public sector and the private sector only paid 2-3 percent toward health insurance , didn't pay toward retirement,and received step raises regardless of any expectations that was sought from the public sector. Let say each year the unions lost members for what ever reason, but the ones left were ask to pay more dues so the private sector could receive their annual and step raises just because they think that they deserve them and has always got them. After years and years of this continous pattern the unions are running low on monies and can't afford other amenities for their members which are footing the bill.