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Firefighter Proposal

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ground swat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 21 2012 at 7:55pm
What happen to the "your wrong I'm right" BS. Why should the citizen worry about how someone EARNS their pay. Accountable for my actions , I think not. I'm Owed GDMT the city set this up. Please don't stop posting make me believe.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 21 2012 at 9:41pm
gs, I don't know if you are ranting about me as i don't comprehend your pt frankly. Cincinnati put their salt and treatment out on Wednesday and said because of the dry weather, it made a hell of a difference. I was out tonight, after the city placed salt twice on the road, shoveled Rosedale, and the roads still were terrible. Seemed to work for Cincinnati, but not in Middletown? As to my driving while an ice storm was coming, that's what happens when the airplane arrives at the gate at 6:50 PM on a Friday night in Cincinnati jag. Evidently, Middletown has better chemical engineers than Cincinnati does and Cincinnati;s public services Director is a moron to think one can put down salt in dry conditions a few days before an ice storm without it wasting salt. shame on you 700 AM, for spreading such falsehoods. 

Glad you two are experts in thermal dynamics, admittedly, I am not. Just repeating what Cincinnati said they did, how it prevented accidents, and I do know, Clifton, Mt Adams, Cheviot, Hyde park, is a hell of lot more hilly and steep than anything in Middletown.     
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ground swat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 22 2012 at 5:07am
Ranting is towards the post of how wrong I am towards public unions comp.  Know not a expert at thermal dynamics just at not wasting clients money. Quite frankly don't waste money on side streets learn how to drive slowly and safely. Cincy a different animal when dealing with ice as was stated, hilly. Volume of traffic is key to get most out of your salt.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jag123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 22 2012 at 9:20am
I saw an interview last night on News 5 with the Cincinnati street boss. He said that they had to do the pre-treatment twice. The rain washed away the first one. I bet that was expensive.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 22 2012 at 9:53am
At the temperatures below 25 degrees, the effect of putting salt on the street is non existent, it doesn't melt the ice. The roads still have enormous coatings of ice. That's why cincinnati put it down when the temperatures were above 32 degrees. The transition between the sudden conversion of cold water to ice was within a short period of time. I wonder who had the policy which was best....brine before the temp dropped and meling it had no effect, or putting it down when it could be melted. No matter, today it hits 40 degrees---problem resolved. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lrisner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 22 2012 at 10:11am
Tony,

   Either I am TERRIBLE at explaining things or you just don't listen.

  Does the market rate for a 'Employee Skill Level 1"  change because of WHO pays for that Employee? No, it does not. You, and others think public money changes the Market, but only because you WANT it to, not because it does.

As to the compensation package depriving Tax payers of other services, there you go again, whining wanting someone else to work for less just so YOU can get more. That is the whole point of this discussion. I say pay what is normal,on a Regional basis,for the Skill level of the Employee. Your mindset on this issue is what SB 5 is all about. Take away the Bargaining Rights of the Public employees so that we can beat them  over the head until they submit and work for what will allow us to have the services we want. We only employ the number of people we can afford. IMO, that number is a lot less that we currently have.

You said "When the compensation package is the highest in the area". OK, I have ask several times for my opponents to make rational arguments and leave the whining out of the discussion. That comment would have fit my request. Why do you only make it now? You could or could not be right. I have heard no one say that till now. Oh, there has been a lot of "too much", "wha, I don't make that much", "Wha, Bens.....".  Now of those comments have meaning, they are whining. If you want to post regional pay and Middletown's pay (total compensation) for the employees covered by this thread, then we might actually be able to have a real discussion about this. Rarely on this forum are there rational discussions. This is the "Whining" Forum in my opinion.


Oh, yea. I am a Supervisor for a NON-Union company. Known to be firm, but very fair in dealing with People.



 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 22 2012 at 10:17am
Why debate an issue which was defeated. SR5 was premised upon the logical notion cities needed the toolkit and flexibility afforded to negotiate contracts which were fair and protected its taxpaying constituents. Many argued it was over-reaching, and it failed. The outcome was the exact principles in existing negotiation remain intact, yet cities have the flexibility to reduce staff. hence, it would appear the union took a bite out of its nose to spite its face. Of course, the alternative is to pass higher tax levies, which will fail. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bumper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 22 2012 at 5:04pm

Salt Brine

WHAT IS SALT BRINE?
Salt brine is a clear water and sodium chloride solution used for snow and ice control. It is composed of tap water and rock salt mixed to typical concentrations of 23% to 26% salt.

WHY IS SALT BRINE USED?

Salt brine can be used effectively either as an anti-icing or de-icing product to keep winter roads free of ice and snow. Remember, almost all snow and ice fighting products, including salt and salt brine, are used for their snow/ice pavement-breaking capability, not because they have the ability to melt all of the ice on the pavement.

  • LESS EXPENSE: Salt brine uses less of the expensive white stuff (salt).
  • The amount of salt required to break ¼ inch of ice from one lane mile of road with a freezing point of 20°F is approximately 8,234 pounds.
  • It requires approximately 60 gallons of salt brine to break the similar one lane mile of road of ice bound to the pavement. At a 23% concentration mixture, this product would offer multiple savings over the use of salt alone.
  • MORE SALT BRINE STAYS WHERE YOU NEED IT (ON THE PAVEMENT – NOT IN THE DITCHES)
  • The bounce and scatter effect suffered when spreading rock salt on the pavement is eliminated. Bounce and scatter loss varies with conditions and speed of application, but can amount to a loss of up to 30% of the total volume of salt.
  • PRE-TREAT WITH SALT BRINE: SALT BRINE CAN BE USED EITHER AS A DE-ICING PRODUCT OR AS AN ANTI-ICING ICE TREATMENT PRODUCT. SALT IS MOST EFFECTIVE ONLY AS A REACTIVE (DE-ICING) PRODUCT.
  • The Salt Institute has stated that applying brine to the pavement before snow or ice has bonded can be 10 times more effective than placing salt crystals on top of snow and ice after it has bonded to the pavement.
  • Pre-treating is the act of applying salt brine directly to the pavement surface anytime pavement temperatures are predicted to drop below freezing, even when there is no snow or ice in the weather forecast.
  • Benefits of pre-treating with Salt Brine includes:
  • Pre-treating pavement with salt brine is normally done one driving lane at a time at normal traffic speeds. Small streams are dribbled on the pavement surface approximately 8” to 12” apart. In clear weather, these liquid streams will leave a strip of fine salt bonded to the pavement and will stay intact for several days under normal traffic conditions. When snow or ice begins, the moisture activates the brine strips preventing the snow or ice from bonding to the pavement.
  • Total application of salt brine during pre-treatment is normally at the rate of 50 to 60 gallons of brine per lane mile.
  • Pre-treating with salt brine is labor efficient since the process can be performed during normal working hours – not at the overtime hours required when the storm materializes.
  • Pre-treating gains the snow fighters time and greatly reduces the cost of breaking the ice and snow bonded to the pavement surfaces.
  • Once a snow or ice bond forms, a dangerous situation occurs for the traveling public and an expensive and time consuming task is created to clear that bond from the roads.


WHAT ARE THE DRAWBACKS OF USING DRY GRANULAR SALT?

Granular salt must be dissolved into brine before any deicing can begin. Making brine of salt can occur prior to application to the surface, or naturally after surface application through the interaction of the salt with moisture.

  • If the roadway is dry, granular salt will not bond to the pavement and traffic will quickly crush it and cause the powder to blow away. Therefore, dry salt cannot be effectively used for pre-treatment before a winter storm.
  • Ohio D.O.T. tests have proven that efficient placement of dry salt can only occur at very low speeds. Excessive scattering of material begins at speeds as low as 15 mph. Tests have shown that on dry pavement at speeds above 309 mph a truck equipped with a conventional spinner will only place 20% - 40% of the salt in the driven lane. Placement does improve somewhat on wet pavement.
  • For dry granular salt to have an effect, it must be placed on snow covered or wet pavement. On snow covered pavement, initial melting must occur from the top down. Salt gradation does affect results. Salt granules that are too fine either blow away via the truck turbulence or they are so small they will completely dissolve and dilute before reaching the pavement, leaving liquid covered snow or a slick spot. The larger salt crystals are the ones that have enough mass to make it through the ice to the pavement where snow/ice pavement bond breaking can begin. The penetration and dissolving process takes time and is slowed by lower temperatures.

THE BETTER ALTERNATIVE – GEOMELT BLENDS®
GEOMELT CUSTOM BLENDED WITH SALT BRINE

  • GEOMELT® is an eco-friendly, sugar beet based natural organic accelerator for nearly any anti-icing or de-icing product.
  • GEOMELT BLENDS® are derived from renewable resources providing an attractive alternative where environmental concerns are important.
  • GEOMELT-S fluid is a natural product - GEOMELT® blended with salt brine – and is a less corrosive fluid featuring ice control performance superior to traditional salt brine.
  • BENEFITS OF USING GEOMELT-S BLENDS® OVER REGULAR SALT BRINE:
  • GEOMELT® salt-brine blend works at temperatures where salt brine is no longer effective. GEOMELT® Blends has a freezing point of -12° to -30°F., which is 25°F. lower than salt brine alone.
  • GEOMELT-S Blend is a natural anti-corrosion agent. Test results from an independent lab approved by the Pacific Northwest Snowfighters have shown GEOMELT® Blends anti-icing/deicing fluid to be three times less corrosive tan salt brine
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bumper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 22 2012 at 5:19pm

Annual cost to produce 100,000 gallons of salt brine

Assume 2,500 gallons per hour

Labor @ $22 per hour$860
Building*$886
Water$750
Salt$795
Electricity$750
Storage tanks*$60
Brine maker*$650
Total annual cost$4,751
Cost per gallon$0.00475
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bumper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 22 2012 at 5:30pm
(40-50 gallons per lane-mile  Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ground swat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 22 2012 at 6:35pm
I love this town!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lrisner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 22 2012 at 7:47pm
Originally posted by acclaro acclaro wrote:

Why debate an issue which was defeated. SR5 was premised upon the logical notion cities needed the toolkit and flexibility afforded to negotiate contracts which were fair and protected its taxpaying constituents. Many argued it was over-reaching, and it failed. The outcome was the exact principles in existing negotiation remain intact, yet cities have the flexibility to reduce staff. hence, it would appear the union took a bite out of its nose to spite its face. Of course, the alternative is to pass higher tax levies, which will fail. 



logical "notion"?   You and Vet need to get a room.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TonyB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 22 2012 at 11:07pm
Irisner,

I read and comprehend just fine. Money is money. Pay for services rendered. Not a difficult concept . Got it before you brought it up. Money does change the market only when someone is offering to do the same thing for less. Basic economics. Learned it in school (Middletown Public School System, btw). I don't want anything!!! The point I've tried to make twice which you still haven't gotten (or at least acknowledged), is that the public sector worker DOES NOT GENERATE THE REVENUE FROM WHICH THEY RECEIVE COMPENSATION!!! I'm not asking anyone to work for less; the point is that with public service there is a finite amount from which to pay for all services. In the private sector, the more productive the employee, the more revenue the company makes (profit) and can pay the employee more. Public service employees are paid with tax dollars that can only increase through more tax revenues being generated. That only happens in two instances; a booming economy or higher tax rates. That's why it's different. Do you really not see that or has your "radical" mindset precluded the possibility that there is more than one perspective to this argument? I was at the downtown rally against SB5; were you?

As for the argument about Middletown police and fire being among the highest compensated in the area, the facts are pretty clear. Personally, I don't have any problem with that. I also don't see how you can say to a public employee who has been offered these contracts by the city administration that they should suddenly give it back. The whining about how it's unfair is bulls*** in my opinion. Tell me your going to give me more money and I'm going to say "Thank you very much" and move on; not " are you sure this is fair?" If we had a more farsighted city council, perhaps they would not have offered so much or been such pushovers at the negotiating table. I don't think that there is any argument that the infrastructure in this city is in terrible shape and it started when the infrastructure fund was shifted into general revenues to pay salaries and benefits for all city workers, union and non-union. It is up to council to fix this problem, not shift it to the backs of police and firefighters. I believe on that we agree.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 23 2012 at 6:37am
Irisner quote....

"Oh, there has been a lot of "too much", "wha, I don't make that much", "Wha, Bens.....". Now of those comments have meaning, they are whining. If you want to post regional pay and Middletown's pay (total compensation) for the employees covered by this thread, then we might actually be able to have a real discussion about this. Rarely on this forum are there rational discussions. This is the "Whining" Forum in my opinion".

Irisner.....this sparring back and forth was never about comparing regional pay and Middletown's pay for public unions. Never in the equation. This debate, for me, is about the comparison between what the union folks have made and are making for similarly skilled work, compared to non-union workers, the percentage they are paying out of their paychecks, compared to what non-union/private sector workers pay out of their paychecks for bennies and the fact that the union people can "bargain" for their wages, using a contract, that gets them raises many years out, BEFORE the work is done and without a merit system defining accomplishments and contributions to the organization. (City residents in the case of city employees). IE- are we using taxpayer money to pay people who work for us that are totally useless or do they contribute? I JUST WANT A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD, THAT'S ALL. What the hell is the incentive to do a decent job if the public sector people are never rated by some kind of merit system, and they know they are going to get raises in years to come, regardless of the job they do? The current evaluation system has the potential of shafting the taxpaying citizens of this community. I don't give a dam about the comparison between Midd. public union workers and those in other areas. I give a dam about how they use my tax money and whether they give it to people who will work at the public union position level and not the half-steppers who drive around all day in a frikkin' pick-up truck with the little yellow bubble-gum light on top. That's as plain as I can make it Irisner. It's up to you whether you want to turn it around and distort it, OR, just plain ignore the message as you have done so far.

Irisner further posts.....

"Oh, yea. I am a Supervisor for a NON-Union company. Known to be firm, but very fair in dealing with People"

Then if you are a supervisor for a non-union company, I'm sure you have been in a position where there has been talk from the "worker" crowd from time to time, about inviting a union in, right? And when that happens, the management of the company, who are very happy WITHOUT a union, gather you supervisors and above together to tell you what to say if you are approached by union talk, right? Been there....done that....Crane Plastics-Columbus- 1972- 1979 and Neaton Auto- Eaton- 1994 to 1998. Non-union...talk of getting a union by the floor folks. Gathered the supervisors and up together to stop the union talk. With your stanch defense of unions and their "rights", I'm surprised you work for a non-union shop. I had you pegged for some union rep out at AK, or some city employee with union ties.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 23 2012 at 6:42am
Originally posted by lrisner lrisner wrote:


Originally posted by acclaro acclaro wrote:

Why debate an issue which was defeated. SR5 was premised upon the logical notion cities needed the toolkit and flexibility afforded to negotiate contracts which were fair and protected its taxpaying constituents. Many argued it was over-reaching, and it failed. The outcome was the exact principles in existing negotiation remain intact, yet cities have the flexibility to reduce staff. hence, it would appear the union took a bite out of its nose to spite its face. Of course, the alternative is to pass higher tax levies, which will fail. 

logical "notion"?   You and Vet need to get a room.


And you need to show some civility in the discussion, bud.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 23 2012 at 6:51am
Originally posted by VietVet VietVet wrote:

Irisner...
I had you pegged for ... some city employee with union ties.
Vet,
I doubt it!!! I'd bet that all of Irisner's ties were made by non-union employees at garment-worker sweatshops in Malaysia or Latin America!!! Wink LOL LOL LOL
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LMAO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 23 2012 at 12:51pm
MR. LAUBACH you have lost alot of backers.All I got to say about that.(Forrest gumps favorite saying)LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lrisner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 24 2012 at 1:11am
Ignore the message....Geeeez. Who TOLD you that where the revenue came from had an impact on the market value of labor or anything else? Did you here that on FOX News?   Duh....the only bearing , in reality, is how the Administrators deal with the revenue if and when a decline in recipients comes. It has NOTHING to do with the value of anything.Duh! Do you thing that the City calls the Salt suppliers and say "We gotta pay less for Salt since we depend on the Tax payer for revenue and that revenue is down"?

Hey Mike....Run for Office again so i can vote against you again.


Chill, a lot of this is just making a little fun out of a laughable SNAFU.

I grew up thinking Community Leaders were smart people. I now find most of them to be out right corrupt or at least stupid. It is a sad commentary about the average American today.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 24 2012 at 5:36am
Originally posted by lrisner lrisner wrote:


Hey Mike....Run for Office again so i can vote against you again.

Gee…I’m not surprised that you “voted against” me.  You’re usually wrong.

I did notice, however, that I got a lot more votes than YOU!!! Big%20smile

“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TonyB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 24 2012 at 2:40pm
I never realized that you could vote AGAINST someone!!! I always thought when candidates were involved, you voted FOR someone. I guess the Board of Elections forgot to put "NONE OF THE ABOVE" on the ballots!!! That would truly be a "radical" idea!!! 
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Wots
Liberalism: Moochers Electing Looters to Steal from Producers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pacman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 26 2012 at 9:30pm
LMAO,
 
What give you the impression that Mr. Laubaugh can effect change when most of the time he is on his own at Council or at the best has only one other council person voting along with him.

If you are going to effect change in council you need to stop voting in the Pickard, Mulligans, and the Morts.  Nothing will change as long as council has this make up.

Mr Laubaugh has been one of the most vocal people of council speaking in favor of the citizens. 

Current council mainly deals with the poverty stricken of Middletown or the upper end crown such as Main St.  They have no time for the middle class citizen in Middletown. 

PacmanCool
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TonyB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 27 2012 at 11:26am
Pacman,

Could not agree with you more!!! They'll be no change in Middletown so long as the current council is dominated by the MMF crowd. They have their idea of what they want to do and they have the votes to continue doing it. Of course, once the current disaster over the CIC is brought to light (if it ever will be), perhaps the citizens of Middletown will wake up and see how little regard for the law our current council has. Since the local newspaper is intent on the policy of "good news only", it's going to take an outside media story to get any coverage of the mess that's been made.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 27 2012 at 11:34am
Originally posted by TonyB TonyB wrote:

Pacman,Could not agree with you more!!! They'll be no change in Middletown so long as the current council is dominated by the MMF crowd. They have their idea of what they want to do and they have the votes to continue doing it. Of course, once the current disaster over the CIC is brought to light (if it ever will be), perhaps the citizens of Middletown will wake up and see how little regard for the law our current council has. Since the local newspaper is intent on the policy of "good news only", it's going to take an outside media story to get any coverage of the mess that's been made.



TonyB/ All....

Perhaps a call to the Cincy/Dayton TV stations and sending researched info. from these pages to the AG (or whoever is responsible for the enforcement of CIC's/NFP's) in Columbus?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chu082011 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 11 2012 at 5:16am

Dear friends

 

Thanks for sharing. I like Firefighter Proposal

very much.

 

Very useful for me.

 

If you have some time, pls visit my blog at: Firefigter interview questions

Rgs

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