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Central Avenue Demolition Project |
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Mike_Presta
MUSA Council Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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Posted: Dec 21 2009 at 8:22am |
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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viper771
MUSA Resident Joined: Mar 16 2009 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 221 |
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If you are on the historic register you can also get federal grants if I am not mistaken.
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SupportMiddletown
MUSA Resident Joined: Nov 01 2009 Status: Offline Points: 181 |
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You are wrong. You can argue a million ways that you are right, but I am not wasting my time pulling out pieces of the zoning code and attempting to explain it, because I am sure you would never believe that the city is not out to get you. If you want to think you are correct, go right ahead.
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Mike_Presta
MUSA Council Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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Regarding the homes in the so-called "historic districts":
Of course they get variances!!! As I have stated before, the whole "history hysteria" in this town is not about history. It is all about keeping out (or kicking out) those that the "it" people find undesirable. When they actually have to do something to their own property with their own money, they tend to do it as cheaply as possible, hence the vinyl siding on their "historic" structure. Their MMF friends make sure they get a variance (if ithey even bother to apply for a permit). It's generally only when its the public's money that nothing but the best will do, just for historical accuracy, of course.
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Mike_Presta
MUSA Council Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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Did you actually "drive around town"??? As you "drive around town" do you stop at these "many, many homes" and check to see if they had building permits???
If these "many, many homes" are having vinyl siding installed they are either:
A: Doing so legally under a variance,
or
B. Doing so illegally.
I can cite laws on drugs here and state a "conclusion" that drug dealing is illegal, yet "drive around the city and and you can observe" drugs being dealt at "many, many" locations. Does that mean that I was "drawing the wrong conclusion" when I said drug dealing is illegal???
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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SupportMiddletown
MUSA Resident Joined: Nov 01 2009 Status: Offline Points: 181 |
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You are drawing conclusions that are not accurate. I can understand from the text you posted above why you might, however. Drive around the city and you can observe vinyl siding being installed on many, many homes. The city has not restricted this. There are even properties within the South Main Street Historic District that have vinyl siding on them; although I'm sure that had to go through the Commission on Landmarks.
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Mike_Presta
MUSA Council Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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Here is a little “light reading” from Middletown’s Codified City Ordinances that some of you sane folks might want to peruse at your leisure: (I would post a link, so you could find it more easily, but find it yourself!!! It’s enough to drive you INSANE!!! ) § 1222.01 CONFORMITY WITH ZONING ORDINANCE. The regulations set by this Zoning Ordinance within each district shall be minimum regulations and shall apply uniformly to each class or kind of land or structure, as provided herein. (2) No building or other structure shall be erected or altered in any other manner contrary to the provisions of this Zoning Ordinance.§ 1222.02 NONCONFORMITY WITH ZONING ORDINANCE. Within the districts established by this Zoning Ordinance or amendments that may later be adopted, there may exist lots, uses of land, structures or uses of structures which were lawful before this Zoning Ordinance was passed or amended, but which would be prohibited, regulated or restricted under the terms of this Zoning Ordinance or future amendment. It is the intent of this Zoning Ordinance to permit these nonconformities to continue until they are abandoned, but not to encourage their survival. It is further the intent of this Zoning Ordinance that nonconformities shall not be enlarged upon, expanded, extended or be used as the basis for adding other structures or uses prohibited elsewhere in the same district.§ 1225.03 ARCHITECTURAL STANDARDS. (b) Building materials.(1) Walls.A. One and one-half and two-story dwellings. All first floor exterior walls that are visible from the street shall be constructed of natural material (stone, brick, wood, stucco, cultured stone, cement siding or hardy plank). All other exterior walls areas of the dwelling may be constructed of other code approved building materials.B. One story dwelling. All exterior walls shall be constructed of natural materials stated in division (b)(1)A. of this section.
PS: If you don’t think the Commission on Landmarks and Historic Structures can FORCE the wrath of God upon you, just look up all the powers they managed to sneak through for themselves over YOUR property…IF you can find it among the 1400 plus pages. |
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Mike_Presta
MUSA Council Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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swohio75
MUSA Citizen Joined: Jun 13 2008 Status: Offline Points: 820 |
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Well only if you are not doing new construction. New homes must use mostly all natural material (wood, stone, brick, stucco, etc. Unless you request a variance from the ARB.
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SupportMiddletown
MUSA Resident Joined: Nov 01 2009 Status: Offline Points: 181 |
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Hermes...Mike is insane. As long as your home isn't in a historic district, you are fine with siding. There are design guidelines for new construction as well, but you should be fine otherwise. |
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lrisner
MUSA Citizen Joined: May 26 2009 Status: Offline Points: 330 |
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I spend a lot of time in Liberty Twp. There are a lot of 200k Houses there with Vinyl Siding. I guess Middletown wants to be more upscale than Lib Twp! |
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Hermes
Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: May 19 2009 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 1637 |
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I wanted to replace my siding next spring,so now I can't ?!!!! What the hell am I suppose to do ? Let the friggin city tear it down because it's an eyesore or something ?!! Thats why one puts on siding in the first damn place !!
Gees...I may just let the bank foreclose and move my rear back to Ky where this kind of crap doesn't go on.
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No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !!
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Mike_Presta
MUSA Council Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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That sounds just like the city council when they meet with the city manager and other staff behind closed doors in a "pre-arranged discussion of city business". They claim that they are NOT city council but a SUB-committee of city council that just happens to be made up of a quorum (+) of city council members.
Unethical, law-breaking criminals...ALL of them!!!
At least we have the word of Armbruster, Picard, Smith, and Laubach (on record at the candidates' forum at the Community Center) that they would NOT participate in such meetings!!!
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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VietVet
MUSA Council Joined: May 15 2008 Status: Offline Points: 7008 |
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Gonna take a shot hear on the incoming council member who told Spider that these two groups comprised the same members- Picard. He seems like he's "one of them". Has a little know-it-all "arrogance" about him. Perhaps that's just he lawyer attitude in him also. Question for the person (Picard?) who told Spider both groups had the same people as members....... If true, why the need to have two different groups that have (assuming here) the same agendas of "moving the city forward"????? What would be the purpose in that, other than to attempt to disguise and confuse those (outsiders) who would inquire as to the nature of the organizations. Secretive little pests, aren't they? I can just picture the scene in Animal House when they are doing the initiations when Kevin Bacon bends over and says, "thank you sir, may I have another". Just see Mort dealing out the swats with that wicked smile on her face as Gilleland counts out loud and Marty Kohler in the back, licking his chops to get in his fair share. What a comical scene.
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Vivian Moon
MUSA Council Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187 |
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This person stated that MIDDLETOWN MOVING FORWARD and MOVING MIDDLETOWN FORWARD were completely different organizations. So--I asked just who were members of both organizations? The person replied that the SAME PEOPLE made up both organizations ?!?!?!
SpiderJohn What?..same people? This makes my brain go…TILT…TILT…TILT |
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spiderjohn
Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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lol mike
had an interesting conversation with an in-coming Council person about this organization.
He stated how "we" are mis-informed about this worthy organization(were we ever informed about it--even after ?ing it's direction?).
This person stated that MIDDLETOWN MOVING FORWARD and MOVING MIDDLETOWN FORWARD were completely different organizations. So--I asked just who were members of both organizations? The person replied that the SAME PEOPLE made up both organizations ?!?!?!
So--since city legal drafted the charter on the city dime, the city manager and mayor are members on the city dime, I assume that this is a city Admin organization.
So--where do I apply for membership next year?
Through the city?
Through the Chamber?
Mrs.Mort? Mr.Slagle? Mr.Cohen? Mr.McNeil?
I think that my resume as a long-term local businessman qualifies me for a seat at the table!
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Mike_Presta
MUSA Council Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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Spider: I doubt that is possible!!! The "Taste Committee" is a subcommittee of MMF, and as I recall, you were an outspoken critic of that group (as I was).
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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spiderjohn
Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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I would like to volunteer to be the chairperson on the "Board of Good Taste" or the
"Good Taste Committee"!
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Mike_Presta
MUSA Council Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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Wasteful: You also stated:
Well...no...not exactly "whatever the hell they want"!!! What I do object to is the CITY trying to decide, make that mandate, what kind of businesses we will have and how they will operate, to the point that they keep business OUT!!!
Do you recall Steve Posey? He used to own all of the McDonalds in town. He was a good man, a good civic participant, a generous contributor to good causes, an all-around good guy with a fair amount of dough. He was NOT "in" with the "in crowd"! He wanted to build a couple (3, I think--it has been a while) buildings on spec on Cincinnati -Dayton Road just south of Oxford State Road. The city wouldn't let him!!! They wanted to know exactly what kind of businesses would come in, exactly how many employees, and exactly what the payroll would be before they would give him a building permit. This guy had a proven track record and was a pillar of the community!!! He told them that he's had enough of Middletown's "business friendliness" and he went to Monroe and built those building on spec, and they are thriving today!!
"The City" has been "planning" Middletown's businesses ever since I returned here in June of 1998, and look where it has gotten us!!! They only want "tasteful", upperclass businesses to come here while we have THOUSANDS of skilled, blue-collar tradespeople out of work!!! Our educational system is pumping out a thousand or so MORE unskilled Middletonians every year who cannot afford to move and who cannot afford more training, and--surprise, surprise--cannot find jobs!!! Yet, every time someone wants to try something, with their OWN MONEY, someone like Schiavone or Kohler puts the kibosh on it! THEY say that THEY don't think this business or that can't succeed, so they won't allow it to try. They keep spending taxpayer money on the businesses THEY want...but WHERE ARE THOSE BUSINESSES???
And don't tell me about the economy, the economy has NOT been in the tank all the while since 1998!!!
If these geniuses are such business Einsteins, why don't THEY start "the kind of businesses that "we should have"??? Ooops...one of them did, didn't he??? And it FAILED, even though HE was allowed to violate the SIGN ORDINANCE in order to try to draw additional patrons!!! (The sign ordinance is just ONE of the stupid laws that I think needs to be re-written!!!) Kohler and the Taste Committee believe that signs that can actually be SEEN are "tacky" and therefore are not to be allowed in Middletown!!!
There was a gentleman named Martin who wated to open a restaurant and "blues club" in Ward 2 a couple of years ago. It was going to replace a corner store outside of which druggies hung. I could not believe what the Taste Committee put this poor gentleman through!!! He even had a group of church ladies that spoke in his favor. The Taste Committee did everything but demand to reserve approval rights over the menu!!! I was in favor of this because it sounded like I could get hot food later at night. (There is NOWHERE in Midlletown where one can get non-fast food in the wee hours, and I like to eat very late at night! I used to be able to go to Barb's Pub after the bar closed on Thu, Fri, and Sat) Anyway, they finally cut the guy's hours and put so many other restrictions on him, it was no longer worth even trying to start the business.
Anyway, the fact is NOT that I believe in letting business "do what the hell they want". I just believe that any legitimate business that wants to have a go at it with their OWN funds should be ENCOURAGED, and NOT DISCOURAGED by city hall because it's not "what THEY (city hall) want" or what the Taste Committee wants.
Middletown won't improve until our home-grown, blue collar work force finds employment NO MATTER how many white collar jobs we land around the hospital. The ones who take those jobs will live in other towns up and down I-75 or to the east. The upper class folks that our Taste Committee wants to hob-nob with will NOT come to Middletown until our home-grown blue collar work force unemployment problem is SOLVED!!! (No matter WHAT COLOR the buildings are!!!)
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Mike_Presta
MUSA Council Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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By the way, our fair city's unofficial "Taste Czar" has already banned vinyl siding and aluminim siding, a fact of which few people are aware. This includes certain types of "veneers". Even if you have such siding already on your home legally, if, for ANY reason, you must replace the majority of it, you can NOT "replace in kind" legally!!!
This is solely because a small group of people in town think that artificial materials on homes are "tacky" and have no place in Middletown, so someone snuck this into the building code or zoning restrictions.
The idea of a "Taste Committee" in Middletown is really not that far-fetched!!! We already have an unofficial one!!!
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Mike_Presta
MUSA Council Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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Wasteful: Apparently, I was unclear in my previous response, and you inferred much more than I intended to imply. For that, I apologize. However, I must clear up some of the more important points that you somehow misunderstood.
You stated: "Using your logic Mike we shouldn't be tearing down any homes, buildings as people made personal choices to let them go and not take care of them and that is their prerogative according to you." I don't believe I have ever expressed such a stupid sentiment. If I have, please find it, re-read it and see if I was being cynical, or possibly trying to make a joke (and obviously failing in the attempt.) Also, sometimes I exaggerate to the extreme to try to make a point. Perhaps that could've been so in the case to which you refer? Regardless, my statements in THIS thread certainly have nothing to do with structurally failing or blighted buildings, but were limited to taste. Now, if the building to which you object are structurally unsound are infested, or are a danger to the public in some other way, or if they are operating in an illegal manner--those would all be legitimate reasons for concern and for taking appropriate civil (or perhaps even criminal) action. But WHO is to decide on TASTE??? Will we have “Taste Police” or a "TASTE Committee” or simply a “Taste Czar”???? What if this “Grand Poobah” of taste decides that he doesn’t like the color WHITE on exteriors of structures??? Would THAT be okay with you??? [Note: This is exaggeration to the extreme in order to make a point!!! I do NOT advocate banning white paint!!!] And what if one then painted one’s white home or business beige, and soon after that Grand Poobah retired and his successor found beige to be distasteful and outlawed beige!!! Would THAT be okay? [Note: I am NOT against beige paint either!] What about bright red or yellow??? You seem to find those two colors distasteful in THIS picture that you posted: BUT, do you find bright red and yellow just as distasteful in these two pictures???: You also state:
Of course!!! I absolutely agree that you have the right to patronize (or NOT patronize) whichever businesses you choose for whatever reasons you choose!!! That is your right, and it is none of my business except to support and defend that right!!! But let me make sure that I understand. Are you saying that you would NOT “use any of the services” inside of either the bright yellow or bright red building above if someone got a proper zoning variance and began offering a service that you needed, and that you would make that “personal choice” “just for the reason of what they have done to the outside of them”??? Is THAT what you are asking me to believe??? If I have understood you correctly, I am sad. I think of all of the towns and even countries I have visited (especially in the south, and in the Caribbean) where you will miss a lot of wonder and adventure simply because you judge buildings by their color! |
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Mike_Presta
MUSA Council Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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This is a good example!!! I find the bengals' uniforms quite "distasteful". However, that has nothing to do with what's INSIDE the uniforms. If one dressed the exact same team in the Detroit Lions' uniforms or the New Orleans Saints' uniforms, would it make a difference??? Would one then have a different team, or the same team if the ONLY thing changed was the uniform???
That is the point I was trying to make, and apparently I failed. I am sure that many people find the Bengals' uniforms quite becoming...others, not so much. But their value should be judged by what's INSIDE the uniforms and thier performance, should it not???
If my name was Martin Luther Presta I might say: I look forward to the day where every building in America is judged not by the color of its paint, but by the character of its content!
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Pacman
Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jun 02 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2612 |
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Spider I have to disagree with you I have been in business in other states and city's and find Middletown's regulations no more restrictive than other city's I have operated in. Now the regs may not be enforced uniformly, I don't see where the city is any worse than any other I have been in and I have been in city's where the regs would make you head spin. Granted some of Kohlers regs on the East end make little sense, but this is where Council needs to step in before they pass the more restrictive ordinances and make changes.
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spiderjohn
Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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wasteful--I respectfully disagree with your direction above. Small businesses are over-regulated in this city, and with regulations that are piecemeal and helter skelter(no cohesiveness, logic or positive benefit). Further complicated by uneven or a total lack of code enforcement. While Atrium/AK and the chosen east end preferred exceptions are allowed to do anything they choose, backed by Mr.Kohler's last minute emergency variances granted by our rubber stamp Planning Commission. Hopefully a major shake-up will occur on this board next year. The leadership needs changed, and older members(especially former Councilmembers) should be replaced with actual business members from all levels of stature. As I continue to preach, inconsistency and uncertainty breeds discontent, especially in such trying times for local business entities fighting for basic survival like never before.
Ya don't have to be a genius or in the loop to see that our city admin policy/direction has failed miserably. Look at our lack of incoming paired with our out-going business concerns from virtually every business segment. Our consistent failed ED direction and actions go back years with multiple meaningless personalities doing little other than working towards personal career advancement. Remember the bad joke that was called Bill Murphy? Are we now similar with Mr.Robinette and Co?
Face it--the emperor has no clothes.
Our retail environment and mapping is a current disaster and has been evolving in this direction for years with no attention from Council/Admin and no inter-relation with the Chamber or local business community.
One by one the key centers have fallen with little awareness or effort to re-build/strengthen them. Why?
I have begun to market my business entities. I have been told that while my holdings are attractive and functional, those interested don't want to branch into Middletown due to appearance,demographics and outside perception of our community and local government.
Sniping on the small,surviving direction downtown is nothing more than a facade, pretending to be dealing with the issue. We(Council/Admin) spend far too much time on menutia, while shying away from the core, big picture-changing issues. Forget about the re-sale shops and their choice of color, other than the serious legal issue of re-selling stolen merchandise. As our city develops, that environment will be replaced through natural selection. If not, then we haven't really lost anything. Ms.Scott Jones is absolutely correct that the victims of such theft have legal right to the return of their items sold/bought illegally without proper documentation and holding period. Mr.Landen is wrong here, and simply trying to take the easy way out.
Hopefully our next Council will move us in the proper direction, though Mr.Picard seems to be the only new member who understands the business environment, their needs, and their frustrations in dealing with such haphazard municipal regulations and policies. Mr.Laubaugh offers hope with his pro-business and consistent conservative thinking, and Mr.Smith will hopefully learn about these issues quickly. Obviously Mr.Becker,Mr.Mulligan, Mr.Armbruster and Ms.Scott Jones don't care enough. Admin is totally absorbed with self-preservation.
All of the Miami U/MU-M involvement discussion will produce little because these people are academia bureaucrats specializing in endless abstract discussion instead of implementation of sound business policies. Good talkers, theorizers and meeting/committee organizers.
jmo
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VietVet
MUSA Council Joined: May 15 2008 Status: Offline Points: 7008 |
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Now Mike----- on the subject of TASTE in your post. Can you go ahead and explain your stance on TASTE, as you did here, only convert the targeted subject from the color on the downtown buildings to rooting for a football team called the Bengals. And...... could you direct your comments/teaching methods/comparisons to Hermes and randy? It may help them understand the meaning of the word- TASTE. You know me- just trying to help out here.
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