Bond Issue

OK chmoore--if the testing/grading standards have changed, and the results are still the same, what does that mean?Well, this isn't rocket science.  During the '60s, for example---and as I stated, we had no state tests that I know of.  We had our class assignments that were graded, and our quizzes, classroom tests, participation---we all know the drill.  These made up our grades.  I wasn't compared to Cleveland students, Athens students or Adams Co. students.  If so, it wasn't scrutinized, dissected, analyzed, glued, screwed and tattooed.  Looking back now, I should have made straight As all through 12 years.  I applied myself until 7th grade when they removed my brain and inserted hormones.  Loved the social life, didn't want to do my assignments.  My choice. Where are we saying that the results are the same?  How can that statement be made based on today's testing demands compared to no standardized tests from the '60s?  Graduation rates? I don't think so.  Attendance?  That's a joke from the '60s    Once again this subject becomes too complicated given all the various factors.   Just 1 chmoore.

Vet:  Part 2:  You asked: "I WILL ASK THE QUESTION FOR THE THIRD TIME.......

WHAT ARE THE PERFORMANCE NUMBERS FROM THE ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS BEFORE THE TEAR DOWNS AND WHAT ARE THE PERFORMANCE NUMBERS WITH THE NEW SCHOOLS?"

Agree with you spider,Mrs.Scott Jones excuse is she dont like the name calling on here.Her words not mine.
Josh excuse is he is already hearing hell about agreeing with a few on here from his fellow council people.
Mayor and his bro are to busy getting what they need to make Main st. Purty.

I got it Get Mike Holmes and or the Property Brothers to come out and renovate and flip the old middle school into a modern functional open concept school, with Hardwood Floors, Stainless Steel appliances, and Granite Counter Tops in the Kitchen and in the Home Economics Rooms

Acclaro,

Acclaro,

ch:

"Bottom line is---get your duct tape ready---new school buildings DO have more value to a community than just educating kids: there, I said it"

THAT WOULD BE TRUE IF IT WERE ANY COMMUNITY BUT MIDDLETOWN. NEW SCHOOLS WOULD CERTAINLY BE OF VALUE TO A COMMUNITY AS TO THE ATTRACTION OF NEW PEOPLE. HAS WORKED FOR MASON AND SPRINGBORO. HOWEVER....THE SCHOOLS OF MIDDLETOWN AND THE PERCEPTION OF THEIR KIDS RECEIVING LESS THAN AN ADEQUATE EDUCATION WOULD TRUMP ANY NEW SCHOOLS YOU COULD BUILD. FANCY NEW SCHOOLS DON'T HELP A BIT IF THE PEOPLE KNOW THEIR KIDS WILL STILL NOT RECEIVE AN ADEQUATE EDUCATION. NOPE, PEOPLE ARE PULLING THEIR KIDS OUT TO GO ELSEWHERE AND TO CHARTER SCHOOLS. CONTENT ch, NOT OUTSIDE APPEARANCE. THE MIDDLETOWN SCHOOLS HAVE NOT HAD A STELLAR REPUTATION FOR DECADES.

ch:

"Another observation: are you saying, after all this time of expounding the glory days of education in Middletown in the '50s and '60s, that YOU were not educated properly by one of Middletown's most esteemed teachers, Mrs. Louise McBain? Could there have been a glitch in the system, even in 1966?"

YEP, A GLITCH. THE MATH COLLEGE PREP COURSES THAT I TOOK IN HIGH SCHOOL DID NOT PREPARE ME TO START THE MULLIGAN VERSION OF FRESHMAN COLLEGE CALCULUS. McBAIN ENDED WITH LIMITS. MULLIGAN STARTED WITH LIMITS. APPARENTLY, THE HIGH SCHOOL MATH PEOPLE DIDN'T BOTHER TO ASK THE RECEIVING MUM MATH PEOPLE WHAT THE STUDENTS NEEDED TO HANDLE TO COLLEGE MATH CURRICULUM. I WONDER IF THE CURRENT HIGH SCHOOL/STATE PEOPLE ARE IN TOUCH WITH THE CURRENT COLLEGE FOLKS TO ASSURE THE STUDENTS WILL BE ABLE TO STEP UP TO THE PLATE IN THEIR FRESHMAN YEAR. SOME COLLEGES MUST START A REMEDIAL CLASS TO BRING THE FRESHMAN CLASS IN COLLEGE UP TO SPEED IN PREPARATION. THAT DOESN'T SPEAK WELL FOR THE HIGH SCHOOL PREPARATION PROGRAM. DON'T THINK IT WAS McBAIN'S FAULT. MIDD. SCHOOLS AND MUM JUST WEREN'T TIED TOGETHER AS TO CROSSOVER NEEDS.

ch:

"Just one last poke: if $8.00/month will finish the building cycle for the next 40 years, I'll bite-the-bullet and take it. Whether we like it or not, "it is what it is." The state mandates everything---test scores, building size, who gets what money...and on and on. OH, LOOK! someone dropped a quarter on the sidewalk! Wow, that will make up for my daily contribution to a new tax levy THAT WILL PAY FOR MY NEW MIDDLE SCHOOL AND RENOVATED HIGH SCHOOL!   I feel better already. OOOHHH---look! another dime on the ground! I'll put that towards my next gallon gas. 40 more of those and I can drive another 15 miles"

I SEE YOU'RE IN THE SAME MODE THAT SOME TV COMMERCIALS ARE IN. "PLEASE GIVE.....JUST A DOLLAR A DAY...THE COST OF A CUP OF COFFEE TO HELP THESE STARVING CHILDREN"...........YOU CAN SPIN IT ANYWAY YOU WISH AS THE TV PEOPLE DO, TUGGING ON YOUR HEART STRINGS TO GIVE, TEARS AND ALL. IT ALL COMES DOWN TO THE PERFORMANCE OF PREVIOUS LEVIES. WHAT HAS HAPPENED WITH THE PROGRESS MADE FROM THE 45 MILLION WE SPENT ON THE ELEMENTARIES? LIKE TOM CRUISE SAYING "SHOW ME THE MONEY" IN JERRY McGUIRE....I SAY "SHOW ME THE PERFORMANCE" BEFORE I VOTE FOR YOUR BOND LEVY. A BUCKS A MONTH ISN'T THE ISSUE HERE ch. WHAT DID I GET FROM MY LAST 8 BUCKS A MONTH FROM THE LAST BOND LEVY IS. I JUST DON'T THINK YOU HAVE PROVEN THAT THE LAST BOND LEVY MONEY WAS WORTH IT, MUCH LESS GIVING YOU LEVY SUPPORTERS MORE THIS TIME.

BY THE WAY, STILL WAITING FOR YOU TO ANSWER THE QUESTION, POSED FOR THE FOURTH TIME NOW....WHAT WAS THE PERFORMANCE LEVEL OF THE ELEMENTARIES IN THE OLD SCHOOLS VERSUS THE PERFORMANCE FROM THE NEWLY BUILT SCHOOLS. AND WAS THE DIFFERENCE WORTH THE 45 MILLION SPENT. HOW ABOUT A RESPONSE THIS TIME.

Let's really net this discussion out.

There will be those whom want to build a new school associated with they just must have it, to keep up with the "Jones", ergo, other districts. They will use a state mandate for numbers of windows needed, numbers of square feet, the ratio of converting hydrogen to produce methane gas to modulate the high frequency of the 3 D tv's in every classroom, et al.

There will be those who are owed payback for getting other levies passed, now its the school's turn.

At the end of the day, not one brick will have an impact upon school performance nor enrollment. Middletown increasingly needs and utilizes open enrollment for back fill of the decline in population in Middletown. Section 8 also serves to fill the excess capacity of seats, but one assumes, contributes to the continuous improvement rating.

So, the town will rise taxes, with no net benefit. In turn, population continues to decline, more foreclosures go up, as more people dump properties, valuations go down (just wait until the next set of property tax appeals hit), and the cycle of diminishing returns continues. The problem doesn't rectify itself, until those that have been in the city during the "glory" years are gone, deceased, moved on to assisted living, etc. That will be about 10-15 years....ten the mass low income moves in, and the city hits Detroit status in all facets.

Loved the "pizza" tax analogy chmoore....for just 8.00/ month, it will only cost me, the same as buying a morning breakfast at the Golden Nugget, or a few slices of pizzas, or less than a cup of Joe a day.

Here's what Middletown's priorities need to be, and its not building new schools. Also, chmoore, private schools get endowments from givers and donors, maybe the public sector should do same---have one of the Akers drop $10 Mm for renovation for the MHS, not amortize the pizza tax over many houses (properties).

Priority 1- Streets
Priority 2- Sewers
Priority 3- Escalation of property valuation
Priority 4- Repair broken image
Priority 5- Economic development engine "that could and does"- east end
Priority 6- Lower Crime
Priority 7- Focus upon core functionality, not asset takeover and management
Priority 8- Dump downtown initiatives- let Main Street worry about selling their "historic" significance
Priority 9- Mixed blend of full-time/ volunteer fire department
Priority 10- Transparency at Donham (finance- GF)

I wouldn't put the school building in a top 25 frankly.

You know why AK, Atrium, Square D, CSH, and others left Middletown---taxes.             

I happen to agree with Acclaro on the idea that the building itself doesn't raise test scores. No matter how you slice this debate or what side you're on, 6 of 26 indicators is a failing grade. I also think there is a huge difference trying to compare education standards from different decades. Back when I went to Middletown City Schools (in the Stone Age), there were no standardized tests to determine whether an individual or the district was meeting "indicators". The standard was how many were graduating and what the GPA was for those students. This whole switch to standardized testing has, imo; destroyed the education system that had been built prior to its implementation. Now, the only thing that matters when judging a school system are those "indicators". The only thing that is taught now is the information to pass those tests and how to take the tests to insure the best possible outcome for the school district. The purpose of education is not the memorization of facts but the training of the mind to learn; something you do for the rest of your life. Our education system no longer teaches that life skill; now we teach indoctrination through the learning of facts and propaganda formulated to keep up the appearance of learning. In Middletown, even the appearance of learning is suffering and the panacea is the offering of new schools as the answer to the problem. It's not the buildings; it's the educational system that has been put in place that is the problem. I don't see how a new levy, new buildings or anything else resolves the real problem.

The CG&E building in clowntown Middletown is pretty old.  How does Cincinnati State expect their students to learn in that old building?  Can't the City schools use the same methods?

ch:

"Vet: by the way, I have NEVER argued about college buildings being torn down"

DON'T THINK I SAID YOU DID. THE SUBJECT IS IN THE MIDD. SCHOOL REALM ON BUILDING TEAR DOWNS, NOT THE COLLEGE BUILDINGS, RIGHT? I WAS USING THE AGE OF THE COLLEGE BUILDINGS THAT ARE AS OLD (OR OLDER) THAN VAIL TO MAKE A POINT.... THAT BEING, THAT A STUDENT CAN GET A GOOD EDUCATION IN AN OLD BUILDING AS WELL AS A BRAND NEW ONE. JUST DEPENDS ON THE CURRICULUM, THE METHOD OF INSTRUCTION FOR MATERIAL RETENTION AND THE CLASSROOM ENVIRONMENT.

BY THE WAY, I HAD MCBAIN FOR SENIOR TRIG, GEOMETRY AND PRELIM. TO CALCULUS BACK IN 66. GREAT TEACHER. UNFORTUNATELY, THE CALC COURSE DIDN'T PREPARE ME FOR FRESHMAN CALC WITH KATHIE MULLIGAN AT MUM THE FIRST YEAR IT OPENED. COURSE ENDED WITH LIMITS AND MULLIGAN STARTED WITH LIMITS. SHE MOVED THROUGH THE COURSE AT A FAST PACE AND CALC WAS COMPLICATED TO ME.

I WILL ASK THE QUESTION FOR THE THIRD TIME.......

WHAT ARE THE PERFORMANCE NUMBERS FROM THE ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS BEFORE THE TEAR DOWNS AND WHAT ARE THE PERFORMANCE NUMBERS WITH THE NEW SCHOOLS? ARE THEY VASTLY IMPROVED AND IF SO, WAS IT WORTH THE 45 MILLION TO SEE THE IMROVEMENT? DID THE TAXPAYER GET A GOOD ROI? AND IF THE ANSWER IS NO, WHY DO WE WANT TO REPEAT THE SCENARIO WITH ANOTHER BOND LEVY, KNOWING THE FIRST DID NOT YIELD ANY BETTER RESULTS?......OTHER THAN A "USE IT OR LOSE IT 40 MILLION FROM THE STATE" OF COURSE.

ch:

Here's a good question for you: if Duke, etc. owned Middletown Middle School, and wanted to renovate it, would it cost more for the college to do it, or more for Middletown City Schools to do it. And, whichever is more costly, why do think that would be?

I WOULD FIRST NEED TO KNOW HOW MUCH HELP IN FINANCING DUKE WOULD GET AS OPPOSED TO MIDD SCHOOLS. NOT FAMILIAR WITH THAT FINANCING AND WHAT IS AVAILABLE THROUGH ANY FED OR STATE PROGRAMS TO AID IN THE MONEY AREA. I WOULD IMAGINE THE COLLEGE WOULD HAVE AN EASIER TIME RENOVATING VAIL AS THEY HAVE A GREATER MONEY TAP FROM TUITIONS, BENEFACTORS AND RESEARCH PROJECTS. MIDD. SCHOOLS HAVE ONLY THE POOR, MIDDLE AND LOWER MIDDLE CLASS PEOPLE TO BLEED DRY FOR THEIR MONEY TAP. THE HIGHER INCOME HAVE MOVED OUT ALONG WITH MOST INDUSTRY AND THE HIGHER WAGE EARNERS, LEAVING MIDD. SCHOOLS NO CHOICE BUT TO BEAT THE REMAINING TAXPAYERS UP.

OK, TEAR ALL THE OLD BUILDINGS DOWN IN THE MIDD. SCHOOL SYSTEM THAT YOU WOULD LIKE. WILL JUST COST MONEY THAT PEOPLE IN A POOR TOWN DON'T HAVE. I'LL MAKE A BET WITH YOU THAT AFTER YOUR NEW SCHOOLS ARE BUILT, NOTHING WILL CHANGE AS TO BETTER PERFORMANCE AND THE PEOPLE WHO WERE FORCED TO FUND THE NEW FACILITIES WILL GET ABSOLUTELY NOTHING FOR THEIR MONEY. AGAIN, FOR THE UPTEENTH TIME, YA GOTTA CHANGE WHAT'S GOING INSIDE THE BUILDING TO CHANGE THE RESULTS. THE CONDITION OF THE BUILDING, NEW OR OLD, ISN'T THE FIXATIVE TO THE CHANGE. WE HAVE ALREADY SEEN THAT.

I'd love to go in the buildings before the are tore down to look around and maybe buy some things.